FANDOM


  • As recommended by Edward Zachary Sunrose, we are shifting the timeline discussion to the General Discussion board.

    Continuation of the timeline discussion threads, following on from Part 12.

      Loading editor
    • Jessica Jones: Season 3 (DaenerysTheMadKhal58)

      DaenerysTheMadKhal58 wrote: And BEJT, it seems no one involved is going to say anything about JJS3's placement for now, so what should we do? Normally, I'd say to just put it in November but I think it's likely that they'll confirm all Netflix seasons were set before Infinity War one way or another (either by bringing back characters somewhere and saying they were dusted or someone just confirms it) and the shows were written without thinking of IW anyway, so maybe we should just put it before IW now, rather than later?

      I will openly admit I am stalling. I've been busy with other things and so have been able to not have to make a decision yet. I reached out to Melissa Rosenberg on Twitter and Facebook and got nothing, reached out to Joe Quesada on Facebook and got nothing. I can try Quesada's Twitter and Melissa's Twitter again, but we all know I'll likely get nothing. I just really don't want to have to make this decision on the information we currently have alone because I can't.

      Now that Part 13 has been created, I'd greatly appreciate it if, being the last message of Part 12, you could quickly go back and edit your last message, DaenerysTheMadKhal58, with a link to Part 13. We do that with each thread just to provide continuity to the discussion for users. Thanks.


      Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 6 Ending (Spoilers) (additional)

      Phew, no Snap.

      Back to about 1931, eh? Interesting. More time travel to hurt our brains, but we have about 9 months to wait before we start worrying about it.

      It would seem though from the rescue at the end that Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. has worked again on the predestination paradox that's so much easier than any other time travel, though I imagine that like The End, there will be something involving changing time through actions in Season 7. But again, don't need to worry yet.

        Loading editor
    • I think I have found the solución for the JJ problem, one year ago, Loeb said in an interview that

      "The stories you're seeing, unless otherwise noted, all happen before what is affectionately referred to as the Thanos snap"

      It isn't noted anywere that JJ3 takes place after the snap, so that means it happens before.

      Source: https://www.denofgeek.com/us/tv/marvel/275145/how-will-avengers-infinity-war-affect-cloak-and-dagger

        Loading editor
    • Unfortunately though that quote does not apply to Jessica Jones: Season 3, since he said, "And we'll continue to be in that place until we find out what happens in Avengers 4."

        Loading editor
    • Shame

        Loading editor
    • I had the same thought last month when I revisited the quote and got excited that there might be a way out on a technicality, but then got to that point.

      You might still be able to twist it as "The stories you're seeing unless otherwise noted all happen before the Snap, and we'll definitely at least be before the Snap until Avengers 4" but that's a bit of a manipulation for convenience.

        Loading editor
    • Very interested to see how S7 of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. will play out, if it will be completely in the past or if they'll keep traveling to different time periods... 

      I guess they could revisit 2018 and show the snap, but I don't see why that would happen.

        Loading editor
    • Remember that article about an Agent Carter crossover? Time travel, huh? Interesting... very interesting...

        Loading editor
    • The Timeline Quiz I made reached more than 1.2k users!! Even though it led to the eternal "MCU TV shows are non canon", I call this an absolute win! People will now know more about our timeline. I hope it gets recognized.

        Loading editor
    • ProBot1227 wrote:
      Remember that article about an Agent Carter crossover? Time travel, huh? Interesting... very interesting...

      Oh, so it looks like Enver Gjokaj (Daniel Sousa) will be in ​​​​​​AoS7.

      It would be nice if the show tied up Agent Carter's loose ends. It might just be set before AC though.

        Loading editor
    • So time travel shenanigans it is. New York City. Empire State Building still under construction. We know it finished on April 11, 1931. So they must have jumped to early 1931 at the latest. Prohibition ended December 1933. Not sure if the fog mention would help narrow down what month. What does that have to do with S.H.I.E.L.D. and its history -- well, in 1931, FDR was the governor. And several years later, as President, FDR was the one who gave the greenlight to start up the SSR which became S.H.I.E.L.D. after World War II. If the Chronicoms alter FDR's history that may compromise the organization's history.

        Loading editor
    • Construction timeline for the Empire State Building:

      https://keithyorkcity.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/the-empire-state-building-constructing-the-worlds-tallest-building-in-just-17-months/

      Construction seems to be completed until the last 30 floors or so, with the framing reaching the spire, so it might be around late October-early November 1930.

        Loading editor
    • [1] Guys, what do you think about this?

        Loading editor
    • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 7 (DaenerysTheMadKhal58, ProBot1227, Mrmichaelt, Lebnyx)

      DaenerysTheMadKhal58 wrote: Very interested to see how S7 of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. will play out, if it will be completely in the past or if they'll keep traveling to different time periods... 

      I guess they could revisit 2018 and show the snap, but I don't see why that would happen.

      They seemed to imply in the interview that it won't just be 1930.

      ProBot1227 wrote: Remember that article about an Agent Carter crossover? Time travel, huh? Interesting... very interesting...

      DaenerysTheMadKhal58 wrote: Oh, so it looks like Enver Gjokaj (Daniel Sousa) will be in ​​​​​​AoS7.

      It would be nice if the show tied up Agent Carter's loose ends. It might just be set before AC though.

      Ah, yes. Could very well be how that ties in.

      Mrmichaelt wrote: So time travel shenanigans it is. New York City. Empire State Building still under construction. We know it finished on April 11, 1931. So they must have jumped to early 1931 at the latest. Prohibition ended December 1933. Not sure if the fog mention would help narrow down what month. What does that have to do with S.H.I.E.L.D. and its history -- well, in 1931, FDR was the governor. And several years later, as President, FDR was the one who gave the greenlight to start up the SSR which became S.H.I.E.L.D. after World War II. If the Chronicoms alter FDR's history that may compromise the organization's history.

      Lebnyx wrote: Construction timeline for the Empire State Building:

      https://keithyorkcity.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/the-empire-state-building-constructing-the-worlds-tallest-building-in-just-17-months/

      Construction seems to be completed until the last 30 floors or so, with the framing reaching the spire, so it might be around late October-early November 1930.

      Thank you, that's a much better construction timeline than the Google Images one I got from a cursory search. Definitely looks like November 1930 to me.


      Quiz (Marvelus)

      Marvelus wrote: The Timeline Quiz I made reached more than 1.2k users!! Even though it led to the eternal "MCU TV shows are non canon", I call this an absolute win! People will now know more about our timeline. I hope it gets recognized.

      There are 1.2k users out there? Blimey, thought there were a couple hundred at best.


      Alternate Realities (Farizhf27)

      Farizhf27 wrote: [1] Guys, what do you think about this?

      I think that it's a good idea to start labelling realities. I don't think it's a good idea to follow Marvel Database's way. We are the MCU Wiki, not all of Marvel. They have bent the time travel rules of the MCU to fit with the rest of the Marvel multi-multiverse, which makes sense for them. But just looking at the MCU's multiverse, things like the "Home to Deke Shaw's grandfather" reality do not exist, that's not how Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5 worked. Obviously I also have strong opinions about the wiki deciding to accept Steve's life with Peggy as an alternate reality.

      If the wiki only acknowledges the timelines that definitely exist: 1970, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2018 (May 2018, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.) and the ones that it's 50:50 may or may not exist (preferably with comments about how they're uncertain): 1940s, 2018 (early 2018, Endgame), then absolutely, it would be helpful. But inventing things like an extra "Earth destroyed" reality that doesn't fit Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s rules for the sake of conforming to Marvel comics, no.

        Loading editor
    • Lebnyx wrote: Construction timeline for the Empire State Building:

      https://keithyorkcity.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/the-empire-state-building-constructing-the-worlds-tallest-building-in-just-17-months/

      Construction seems to be completed until the last 30 floors or so, with the framing reaching the spire, so it might be around late October-early November 1930.

      Awesome! Cool find. I agree, it definitely looks like November 1930. Early 1931 at the latest. I'm was a little surprised they didn't end the scene on a timestamp.

      BEJT wrote: They seemed to imply in the interview that it won't just be 1930.

      Yep, the Hunter Chronicoms seem to be attacking key points in S.H.I.E.L.D.'s timeline. So we could see things that have only been mentioned so far up to maybe even revisiting past seasons of AOS. Fingers crossed the season doesn't muck up anything already established in the MCU timeline.
        Loading editor
    • )
        Loading editor
    • BEJT wrote: But just looking at the MCU's multiverse, things like the "Home to Deke Shaw's grandfather" reality do not exist, that's not how Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5 worked.

      To make a point, we all have seen three different Leo Fitz. The one that survived the Destruction of Earth in the Lighthouse, the one that became Boshtok the marauder and died, and the one currently alive.

      Therefore, any explanation that ignores the acknowledgement of the three different realities these Fitzes belong to, is inherently wrong.

        Loading editor
    • There doesn't need to be three timelines for there to be three versions of Fitz, the same way there doesn't need to be two timelines for there to be two versions of Cap coexisting.

      There are two Fitzes around from December 2017, once the agents come back from the future. Doesn't mean it's a different timeline, they're shown to exist simultaneously. Then the timeline splits in May 2018 and the older one dies, while the younger one survives, thus leaving you with three Fitzes.

      In the original timeline, there are always two simultaneous Fitzes from December 2017 to 2091. They're the same Fitz, just one younger and one older (and then dead, presumably from old age). We get a third one from the timeline split.

        Loading editor
      • November 2017 - Leo Fitz falls asleep.
      • December 2017 - Older Fitz returns from the future. Younger Fitz is still out there, asleep.
      • May 2018 - Older Fitz fails to stop the destruction of Earth. Younger Fitz is still out there, asleep.
      • c. 2024 - Older Fitz has a daughter. Younger Fitz is still out there, asleep.
      • At some point, older Fitz dies. Younger Fitz is still out there, asleep.
      • 2091 - Fitz wakes up, becomes Boshtok, heads back in time.

      Time jump back to December 2017.

      • December 2017 - Older Fitz returns from the future. Younger Fitz is still out there, asleep.
      • May 2018 - Older Fitz fails to stop the destruction of Earth. Younger Fitz is still out there, asleep.
      • c. 2024 - Older Fitz has a daughter. Younger Fitz is still out there, asleep.
      • At some point, older Fitz dies. Younger Fitz is still out there, asleep.
      • 2091 - Younger Fitz wakes up, becomes Boshtok, heads back in time.

      Time jump back to December 2017.

      • December 2017 - Older Fitz returns from the future. Younger Fitz is still out there, asleep.
      • May 2018 - Older Fitz fails to stop the destruction of Earth. Younger Fitz is still out there, asleep.
      • c. 2024 - Older Fitz has a daughter. Younger Fitz is still out there, asleep.
      • At some point, older Fitz dies. Younger Fitz is still out there, asleep.
      • 2091 - Younger Fitz wakes up, becomes Boshtok, heads back in time.

      Time jump back to December 2017

      etc. etc., in a loop of the only timeline.

      Then in Season 5:

      Time jump back to December 2017.

      • December 2017 - Older Fitz returns from the future. Younger Fitz is still out there, asleep.
      • May 2018 - The team stop the destruction of Earth and the timeline splits, to a new timeline where Earth isn't destroyed. Older Fitz dies. Younger Fitz is still out there, asleep.
      • 2019 - Season 6. Simmons admits they don't know how they changed time and there isn't a scientific reason they can give.

      I didn't even realise until the other day that this was in any way contested.

        Loading editor
    • BEJT wrote: In the original timeline, there are always two simultaneous Fitzes from December 2017 to 2091. They're the same Fitz, just one younger and one older (and then dead, presumably from old age). We get a third one from the timeline split.

      They are three different Fitz, from different universes. And that is fact and not theory.

        Loading editor
    • Shabook, I don't know how to respond to something like that without sounding argumentative and I don't want to sound argumentative.

      There has been no reason given, no fact, for why there needs to be three universes to have three Fitzes. He time travels back on himself, there's always two simultaneous ages of Fitz pre-The End from 2017 to 2091. That's a fact throughout Season 5.

      Then the timeline splits, when there are two Fitzes at different stages of life around in 2018, so we get two new versions of Fitz, one split from a younger age and one split from an older age, and no longer destined for the younger to become the older. One dies and one is out in space.

      To introduce a third universe would introduce a fourth and possible fifth Fitz.

      There is no theory involved here, it's the facts of the show.


      Imagine, if you will, a worm (that when cut in half, turns into two worms, as many people believe worms do - it's not strictly true), lined up next to a ruler that goes up to 2091cm.

      The worm starts at point "1987cm", extending "2091cm". At 2091cm, it buries itself underground and burrows back to "2017cm", then extends to, say, point "2060cm". That's Fitz's one life, in the one (original) timeline, doubling back on itself so for 2017 through to about 2060 (and through to 2091 if you include the dead body), there are two simultaneous Fitzes who are the same Fitz, just at different stages.

      Then you take a pair of scissors and at point "2018" you snip across (the split of the timeline). You now have two worms post-snip (post-timeline split), one cut at the point 30cm down the worm, one cut at the point 105cm down the worm. No longer connected to each other. These two now grow into individual worms. The 105cm one dies pretty soon after, the 30cm continues.

      Three versions of the worm, just one split in the timeline.

        Loading editor
    • I always thought of it as:

      Original Timeline: Fitz goes to 2091.

      New Timeline: Original Fitz returns to present day and creates a new timeline. New Timeline Fitz is identical to Original Timeline Fitz, except he doesn't go to 2091 because the timeline was changed. Original Timeline Fitz dies.

        Loading editor
    • ProBot1227
      ProBot1227 removed this reply because:
      .
      22:47, August 4, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • The book Cosmic Quest Volume #2: Aftermath can definitely not be canon now. It has Erick Selvig surviving the snap but there is an image of Selvig in Endgame showing him as one of the victims of the snap. I just recently realized this since Endgame came out on digital.

        Loading editor
    • It doesn't mean he died in the snap, he was laying low in the book. This has already been discussed.

        Loading editor
    • CirUmeUela wrote:
      The book Cosmic Quest Volume #2: Aftermath can definitely not be canon now. It has Erick Selvig surviving the snap but there is an image of Selvig in Endgame showing him as one of the victims of the snap. I just recently realized this since Endgame came out on digital.

      We don't see him confirmed as Snapped, we see him confirmed as missing a mere three weeks after the Snap. Ant-Man was missing for five years and was never Snapped.

      Plus, Dark World establishes that Selvig is good at going off the grid, only being found because of when he went crazy at Stonehenge.

        Loading editor
    • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 7 (Mrmichaelt)

      Mrmichaelt wrote: Yep, the Hunter Chronicoms seem to be attacking key points in S.H.I.E.L.D.'s timeline. So we could see things that have only been mentioned so far up to maybe even revisiting past seasons of AOS. Fingers crossed the season doesn't muck up anything already established in the MCU timeline.

      I really like the idea. It feels like Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s Avengers: Endgame, revisiting the history to cap it all off. Just glad we have 9 months before potential time travel headaches (though Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. has a good history with handling it fairly simply).

      When asked about the rules, the producers said:

      • "Whedon: Well you're going to have to wait and see."
      • "Tancharoen: These all might be things that our characters are debating."
      • "Jeff Bell: Marvel's not going to let us do anything they don't want us to do."

      Bell's comment is particularly interesting.


      Marvel's Avengers: Infinity War: The Cosmic Quest Volume Two: Aftermath (CirUmeUela, ProBot1227, Edward Zachary Sunrose)

      CirUmeUela wrote: The book Cosmic Quest Volume #2: Aftermath can definitely not be canon now. It has Erick Selvig surviving the snap but there is an image of Selvig in Endgame showing him as one of the victims of the snap. I just recently realized this since Endgame came out on digital.

      ProBot1227 wrote: It doesn't mean he died in the snap, he was laying low in the book. This has already been discussed.

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: We don't see him confirmed as Snapped, we see him confirmed as missing a mere three weeks after the Snap. Ant-Man was missing for five years and was never Snapped.

      Plus, Dark World establishes that Selvig is good at going off the grid, only being found because of when he went crazy at Stonehenge.

      Yeah, that's exactly what he's done at the beginning of the book. And while I'm still only a few chapters in, there's definitely a feeling like it's been at least some months since the Snap (i.e. after the beginning of Endgame), plus an implication that it's summer so maybe about 3 months after.

      Author Brandon T. Snider has an email address publicly available to use, so once I finish the book I'm going to email him to get some confirmation.


      Captain America: The First Avenger (additional)

      In a recent interview, while the writers talked again about Steve being in a loop because of there being no Infinity Stone removed (I think this is one of the better times they've talked about it and I wish the Russos would acknowledge and address the Infinity Stone line, they also again say it's 1948 (they slip and say 1945 momentarily but then say 1948) and specifically say that yes, that's because it's after Agent Carter: Season 2 - anyway, just some quick notes on that stuff but this isn't about that), they said that Captain America: The First Avenger is set in 2011.

      While this is most likely not a thought-through comment and just using the release year, it is nonetheless helpful since they wrote that film as well, so it's a writers' comment on The First Avenger's setting which lines up.

        Loading editor
    • BEJT wrote: I really like the idea. It feels like Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s Avengers: Endgame, revisiting the history to cap it all off. Just glad we have 9 months before potential time travel headaches (though Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. has a good history with handling it fairly simply).

      When asked about the rules, the producers said:

      • "Whedon: Well you're going to have to wait and see."
      • "Tancharoen: These all might be things that our characters are debating."
      • "Jeff Bell: Marvel's not going to let us do anything they don't want us to do."
      Bell's comment is particularly interesting.
      That's a good parallel to draw. It is like Endgame, except it's more like time cops rather than time heist. Hmm. But yeah, some people out there on the Internet started to believe Marvel TV was doing things independently but in reality they still have to submit everything through Marvel proper for legalities, clearances, etc. so the fact they weigh in on time travel rules makes sense.

      BEJT wrote:

      Captain America: The First Avenger (additional)

      In a recent interview, while the writers talked again about Steve being in a loop because of there being no Infinity Stone removed (I think this is one of the better times they've talked about it and I wish the Russos would acknowledge and address the Infinity Stone line, they also again say it's 1948 (they slip and say 1945 momentarily but then say 1948) and specifically say that yes, that's because it's after Agent Carter: Season 2 - anyway, just some quick notes on that stuff but this isn't about that), they said that Captain America: The First Avenger is set in 2011.

      Hmm, interesting. So after he returned the last stone, whichever one that may have been, when he chose the next location in the timeline rather than return to the present, he would be anchored in a time loop no matter what.
        Loading editor
    • Mrmichaelt wrote: Hmm, interesting. So after he returned the last stone, whichever one that may have been, when he chose the next location in the timeline rather than return to the present, he would be anchored in a time loop no matter what.

      That was always how I saw it, and is what the writers have been saying for 3 months now, while the directors have gone in a different direction.

      You can't change time and the film only says you create an alternate timeline through removing an Infinity Stone, plus only shows the way to return to your timeline as being via hitting the return button to come out of the Quantum Tunnel just after you left. So it always made sense to me that it's simply a time loop (so is Hawkeye's test run). This is just another comment from them saying that, but I was mainly sending it for the 2011 mention because the disagreement between the writers and directors has been chronicled and discussed to death and I don't want to kick that off again.

        Loading editor
    • True, true.

      Hmm, y'know, I wonder if we'll see an episode where the Chronicoms travel back to a few days/day of when Coulson is recruited to S.H.I.E.L.D. by Fury.

        Loading editor
    • Hey guys!! Do season JJS3's dates have a page on the wiki? I was trying to wrap my head around when the different events in 302 happen

        Loading editor
    • The casting news about Gemma Chan getting a new role in Eternals, separate to her role in Captain Marvel should negate the frame of mind that Luke Cage & the TV shows are non-canon due to an actor playing more than one character. I know we have had actors play multiple roles in movies, which then frequently gets retconned to be the same character or a relative, but having an actor play unrelated named characters in 2 movies in less than 2 years shows that it isn't a basis to decanonise something. Unless of course the headlines now claim Captain Marvel is non-canon...

        Loading editor
    • The Russo Brothers are going to do an AMA on Reddit on Wednesday and a Twitter Live on Thursday

        Loading editor
    • Lets ask again on Netflix canonicity? :p

        Loading editor
    • Like last time where we got nothing? Maybe the Russos are a little more cooperate than Fiege, who has stated the shows are canon, sometimes indirectly, but was dead silent last time on Reddit.

      Well, we can try!

        Loading editor
    • Meh, I'm betting most people will ask that, or ask them about Cap again. I'd rather ask them about more stuff that was left on the cutting room floor.

        Loading editor
    • Well the Russos have seen more comfortable with talking about the TV shows so maybe they would answer a question like that.

        Loading editor
    • Russos are sticking to the alternate timeline theory (thank god). Steve did not return to that moment on the bench, that's why he doesn't have the Quantum Suit on.

      https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/cn9lbx/were_joe_and_anthony_russo_directors_of_marvel/ew9238h/?context=3

      A long standing theory is that Old Man Cap left his new timeline in 2016 when Peggy dies (assuming she still dies in 2016) and waited 7 years in the MCU. I don't buy that. I think, going by what the Russos said, Steve jumped to the main timeline sometime during the final battle or its aftermath, and waited until Young Steve left.

      So that would make both official explanations right; Cap lived his life in an alternate timeline, but he returned to the main timeline when his younger self left, creating a loop for Cap's internal chronology.

        Loading editor
    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Russos are sticking to the alternate timeline theory (thank god). Steve did not return to that moment on the bench, that's why he doesn't have the Quantum Suit on.

      https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/cn9lbx/were_joe_and_anthony_russo_directors_of_marvel/ew9238h/?context=3

      A long standing theory is that Old Man Cap left his new timeline in 2016 when Peggy dies (assuming she still dies in 2016) and waited 7 years in the MCU. I don't buy that. I think, going by what the Russos said, Steve jumped to the main timeline sometime during the final battle or its aftermath, and waited until Young Steve left.

      So that would make both official explanations right; Cap lived his life in an alternate timeline, but he returned to the main timeline when his younger self left, creating a loop for Cap's internal chronology.

      The Quantum Tunnel was destroyed when Thanos passed through it, and so was Luis' van during the battle. The new platform had probably just been made when Cap left, I don't think it's possible for Old Steve to have come back without anyone noticing.

      And I don't see how that would make the M&M explanation right. Theirs doesn't involve Cap using the Quantum Tunnel again to come back.

      I think we'll just have to deal with the fact that the movie was written one way (M&M) and was filmed and acted using that explanation, but moving forward Marvel will use the Russos' explanation (which likely came about because of Marvel's future plans for the franchise).

        Loading editor
    • Jessica Jones: Season 3 (Nox23)

      Nox23 wrote: Hey guys!! Do season JJS3's dates have a page on the wiki? I was trying to wrap my head around when the different events in 302 happen

      We've been struggling with the decision. With Episode 2's flashback events, these are the rough dates, depending on whether the season is set in April-May or November-December.


      Gemma Chan (Aricco)

      Aricco wrote: The casting news about Gemma Chan getting a new role in Eternals, separate to her role in Captain Marvel should negate the frame of mind that Luke Cage & the TV shows are non-canon due to an actor playing more than one character. I know we have had actors play multiple roles in movies, which then frequently gets retconned to be the same character or a relative, but having an actor play unrelated named characters in 2 movies in less than 2 years shows that it isn't a basis to decanonise something. Unless of course the headlines now claim Captain Marvel is non-canon...

      It's definitely odd, because convention is that if an actor has already played a fairly sizeable role, they shouldn't play another unrelated character, and that's why the Cottonmouth/Blade comments came up. It could potentially be a CG character, but I doubt it.

      Anyway she's good and it doesn't bother me (Mahershala wouldn't bother me if Feige just acknowledged it, because the reason it bothers me is the implication that it feels like an ignoring of the shows), especially since she was blue in Captain Marvel. And I'm glad that this does indeed serve as a counter-argument over the Netflix stuff.


      Russos' AMA (MrRLopez, Marvelus, ProBot1227, Edward Zachary Sunrose, CirUmeUela, DaenerysTheMadKhal58)

      MrRLopez wrote: The Russo Brothers are going to do an AMA on Reddit on Wednesday and a Twitter Live on Thursday

      Marvelus wrote: Lets ask again on Netflix canonicity? :p

      They don't really have the authority to answer that question. They're not Marvel overseers. And I kind of don't want people to keep asking that question because it perpetuates the idea that it's even in question and puts it at risk of a bad reply that casts more doubt.

      ProBot1227 wrote: Like last time where we got nothing? Maybe the Russos are a little more cooperate than Fiege, who has stated the shows are canon, sometimes indirectly, but was dead silent last time on Reddit.

      Well, we can try!

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Meh, I'm betting most people will ask that, or ask them about Cap again. I'd rather ask them about more stuff that was left on the cutting room floor.

      I definitely do not need them to talk about Cap again.

      CirUmeUela wrote: Well the Russos have seen more comfortable with talking about the TV shows so maybe they would answer a question like that.

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Russos are sticking to the alternate timeline theory (thank god). Steve did not return to that moment on the bench, that's why he doesn't have the Quantum Suit on.

      https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/cn9lbx/were_joe_and_anthony_russo_directors_of_marvel/ew9238h/?context=3

      A long standing theory is that Old Man Cap left his new timeline in 2016 when Peggy dies (assuming she still dies in 2016) and waited 7 years in the MCU. I don't buy that. I think, going by what the Russos said, Steve jumped to the main timeline sometime during the final battle or its aftermath, and waited until Young Steve left.

      So that would make both official explanations right; Cap lived his life in an alternate timeline, but he returned to the main timeline when his younger self left, creating a loop for Cap's internal chronology.

      Guh, but they did, of course.

      I don't understand the "thank god" here. I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree at this point because honestly I just can't personally see how people stand by the Russo explanation based on the film alone.

      I would be OK with the explanation that Steve was in an alternate timeline (I mean I still definitely prefer the extra weight and narrative closure that the Markus and McFeely explanation gives) if they just actually explained it in relation to building on what's said in the film and finding a fudged way to make it work. What really annoys me is that they insist the basis for their explanation is in the film, which it very much isn't. I'm yet to see them actually address the Ancient One's line about Infinity Stones, how Steve could return the stones if going back in time creates alternate timelines every time, or how Steve could come back to the main timeline at any point other than just after he left.

      Anyway, addressing this comment, I personally never had a problem with him not wearing the Quantum Realm suit. They pack up into a tiny space instantaneously anyway. It's the fact that he doesn't come back through the Quantum Tunnel there and then, which is all we've been shown to be possible through the film.

      The user asking the question is frustrating as well. "Banner said that when you go back in time you make a seperate [sic] time line". No, no he didn't. I don't understand how so many fans are so interested in this yet haven't actually taken the time to pay attention to the Banner quote, nor the Ancient One quote since it honestly sometimes feels like people are deaf to the words "Infinity Stone" in that scene.

      This at least puts paid to the argument of "Cap can't have been in this timeline all along since he definitely only just appeared on the bench in that moment". No, by either explanation, Steve was already there.

      It also puts paid to the theory that Steve could in some way use the GPS, like the jump to 1970, to just arrive not in the Quantum Tunnel, which I've been saying doesn't work.

      There's no way Steve came back to the main timeline's 2016, since there were no Quantum Tunnels around until 2018, and there's no precedent for coming out of anything other than the Quantum Tunnel you left from anyway, which wasn't created until 2023. If he lived in an alternate timeline, he could have left that timeline after Peggy died in 2016, but he wouldn't have jumped over to the MCU's 2016. You don't jump laterally across timelines, you hit the return button to come back out where you left, at the programmed time (usually, and in this instance as well, a few seconds after you left). And that's why I have a problem with the idea that Steve came out at some other time.

      Also, they're somehow suggesting that that new Quantum Tunnel, which has almost certainly only just been finished, was left unattended at some point between its creation and Steve's trip back, and Steve knew it was unattended at that point, and then when he was old in his alternate timeline he somehow managed to come back a few hours early during that time he knew it was unattended and just sneak out... OK...

      To your suggestion, Steve coming out during the battle, I don't see that happening. Again, there's no precedent for coming out of a different Quantum Tunnel than the one you left in, and both tunnels get destroyed within about a 20-minute span of time, plus are attended to for most of that time. And old Steve coming out of the Tunnel during that battle and hobbling away seems unlikely to me.

      It doesn't in any way make the Markus and McFeely explanation right, unfortunately. This explanation doesn't change anything from before - Steve returned to 2023 from his alternate timeline, the method doesn't make a difference to how it fits with the Markus and McFeely explanation. Their view isn't focused on the idea of a loop, it's specifically the idea that there's no reason Steve would create an alternate timeline and that therefore he has specifically lived through the events of the MCU in the background. The two views aren't compatible in some compromise and this is just purely the Russo view.

      DaenerysTheMadKhal58 wrote: The Quantum Tunnel was destroyed when Thanos passed through it, and so was Luis' van during the battle. The new platform had probably just been made when Cap left, I don't think it's possible for Old Steve to have come back without anyone noticing.

      And I don't see how that would make the M&M explanation right. Theirs doesn't involve Cap using the Quantum Tunnel again to come back.

      I think we'll just have to deal with the fact that the movie was written one way (M&M) and was filmed and acted using that explanation, but moving forward Marvel will use the Russos' explanation (which likely came about because of Marvel's future plans for the franchise).

      I don't think it should be possible for him to have come back without anyone noticing either, nor is there a point in the film where they establish that someone can choose to return not at the programmed time. But hey, the Russos seem intent on making this much more confusing than the film laid out.

      Yeah, it doesn't fit with the Russo explanation.

      And yes, that's what I've been saying too. The film was written the Markus and McFeely way (of course, they wrote it), but the Russo explanation will likely unfortunately somehow be made canon through a lot of fudging, hand-waving, and exploiting grey areas. Although, I did think that because I thought they were more tuned in to what's happening next at Marvel, but they also, like the writers, recently made a comment about how they don't know what's happening next at Marvel and this is just their opinion. So maybe not.

      I'm scared Marvel will still use the Russo explanation just because it seems more people believe that than the writers' (while some of them, like Edward Zachary Sunrose, have a full understanding and still feel that way, I personally feel frustrated because I think a large portion of these people have only paid semi-attention to the film and also don't understand the "narrative protection" science of a time loop so have a problem with Steve not stopping bad events), even though the writers' explanation is what the film says.

      Feige, it's in your hands.

        Loading editor
    • I'm only going to bring this up one last time, but yes. Agree to disagree.

      Hulk's explanation to Rhodey about "changing the past cannot change the future" clearly establishes alternate timelines, and clearly sets up that every single trip we see is in fact a new branch off of the main timeline.

      The Ancient One's explanation to Hulk about branches is only in relation to possible negative futures opened up by removing the Stones, from an already existing branch (in the Ancient One's hypothetical, this was likely alternate 2012 being vulnerable to Dormammu in 2017 because Hulk didn't return the Stone). We know she must be talking about an already existing branch, specifically her branch, because she explicitly is talking about the removal of the Stone, and not about time travel itself.

      Returning the Stone does not clip off the branch and reset the timeline, it only makes it so that branch is no longer facing a chaotic future due to not having a specific Stone available (Cap returning the Stone ensures that Strange will be able to lock Dormammu into the time loop and scare him away).

      That is how Cap can live a life in an alternate reality with Peggy. That is how 2012 Loki can have a Disney+ series about his life after escaping, despite Steve being clearly instructed to return the Stones to the exact moment they took them from (meaning the timeline would be reset before this Loki could ever do anything noteworthy), as that is what Bruce promised he would do to the Ancient One.

      Also, it would take quite some time for Thanos and Ebony Maw to reverse engineer Pym Particles, gather the entirety of Thanos' army in one space and shrink everything down in order to go to 2023, no matter how smart they are and how much tech they have. If Steve returns the Orb even a second after Nebula leaves the Temple (when they got the Stone), that only leaves a few hours at most for Clint and Natasha to get the Soul Stone and for Steve to return it, obliterating this timeline.

      That is how I've interpreted the rules as laid out by Endgame, that is how I've seen most people interpreting the rules, and I believe that's how the Russos are interpreting the rules and why they've stuck with the Alternate Timeline theory so vehemently.

      Whether or not Markus and McFeely interpreted the rules that way when they wrote them (which clearly they don't, since as of SDCC they still maintain it's a loop, and even brought in a science consultant to back them up), it's honestly no longer relevant. The final product is out of their hands now and it's in the public consciousness and can be interpreted in any number of ways.

        Loading editor
    • I thought this discussion was over months ago xD. This is going to haunt us for the rest of our lives, isn't it?

        Loading editor
    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: I'm only going to bring this up one last time, but yes. Agree to disagree.

      Hulk's explanation to Rhodey about "changing the past cannot change the future" clearly establishes alternate timelines, and clearly sets up that every single trip we see is in fact a new branch off of the main timeline.

      But there's a difference between changing time and travelling in time. He never says that if you travel in time you create an alternate timeline. Hulk's points boil down to:

      • You can't change time.
      • If you were to change time, then it wouldn't be a rewriting of the timeline, i.e. the implication that isn't actually said by him is an alternate timeline.

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: The Ancient One's explanation to Hulk about branches is only in relation to possible negative futures opened up by removing the Stones, from an already existing branch (in the Ancient One's hypothetical, this was likely alternate 2012 being vulnerable to Dormammu in 2017 because Hulk didn't return the Stone). We know she must be talking about an already existing branch, specifically her branch, because she explicitly is talking about the removal of the Stone, and not about time travel itself.

      This is the way you have to fudge it to make it fit the Russo rules, which is far from ideal. And there's still several more holes in the Russo explanation.

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Returning the Stone does not clip off the branch and reset the timeline, it only makes it so that branch is no longer facing a chaotic future due to not having a specific Stone available (Cap returning the Stone ensures that Strange will be able to lock Dormammu into the time loop and scare him away).

      I'm not passionate about the erasing thing, though that is what the film says.

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: That is how Cap can live a life in an alternate reality with Peggy. That is how 2012 Loki can have a Disney+ series about his life after escaping, despite Steve being clearly instructed to return the Stones to the exact moment they took them from (meaning the timeline would be reset before this Loki could ever do anything noteworthy), as that is what Bruce promised he would do to the Ancient One.

      Also, it would take quite some time for Thanos and Ebony Maw to reverse engineer Pym Particles, gather the entirety of Thanos' army in one space and shrink everything down in order to go to 2023, no matter how smart they are and how much tech they have. If Steve returns the Orb even a second after Nebula leaves the Temple (when they got the Stone), that only leaves a few hours at most for Clint and Natasha to get the Soul Stone and for Steve to return it, obliterating this timeline.

      Cap's alternate reality wouldn't have anything to do with erasing.

      They haven't taken any stones from the timeline yet when Loki escapes. But again, I'm not passionate about the erasing argument.

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: That is how I've interpreted the rules as laid out by Endgame, that is how I've seen most people interpreting the rules, and I believe that's how the Russos are interpreting the rules and why they've stuck with the Alternate Timeline theory so vehemently.

      I just don't see why so many people are adding things to make it make sense, when the Markus and McFeely explanation needs barely anything added than just what the film shows you.

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Whether or not Markus and McFeely interpreted the rules that way when they wrote them (which clearly they don't, since as of SDCC they still maintain it's a loop, and even brought in a science consultant to back them up), it's honestly no longer relevant. The final product is out of their hands now and it's in the public consciousness and can be interpreted in any number of ways.

      They didn't bring in Clifford V. Johnson to back them up. He was there for the Time Travel in the Quantum Realm panel and they discussed different ways of looking at time travel, and he put forwards why he thinks that explanation works.

      I'm sorry that this keeps coming up. Just want to acknowledge your good work. You absolutely have taken the time to think it through and discuss this subject well.

      "I wish we agreed on the time travel rules, I really do. I know you're doing what you believe in, and that's all any of us can do. That's all any of us should."




      But Markus and McFeely are right😉.

      Marvelus wrote: I thought this discussion was over months ago xD. This is going to haunt us for the rest of our lives, isn't it?

      I have not stopped talking to people about it for 3½ months, and have been writing a blog stripping every film, director, writer, and science adviser script to the bone for weeks. I am exhausted.

        Loading editor
    • I really think they should have chosen other thing rather than the time travel thing...

        Loading editor
    • I'm fine with it, just external factors have been very frustrating. Doesn't affect how much I enjoyed what they did with the time travel.

        Loading editor
    • I've been putting together the episodes and events from Jessica Jones S3. Might do the same with Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. S6 and Cloak & Dagger S2 once I catch up. To help you a little, I really would have enjoyed to write the Daredevil S3 one, but I will not be able to. Sadly.

      BEJT, what did you think of the Timeline Quiz I did? I had the impression you would have nailed but now I think you disagree with some of the questions and answers xD. Did you also read the Essay I made about Marvel Studios and TV story?

        Loading editor
    • BEJT wrote:

      I'm sorry that this keeps coming up. Just want to acknowledge your good work. You absolutely have taken the time to think it through and discuss this subject well.

      "I wish we agreed on the time travel rules, I really do. I know you're doing what you believe in, and that's all any of us can do. That's all any of us should."


      Thank you. And I appreciate that your argument is just as well thought out and well-eloquated (is that a term? It is now LOL)

      I don't know where that quote is from, but I absolutely agree.

      I just wish the MCU had never done time travel or time machines or time loops. This goes not only for Endgame, but also SHIELD and Runaways. That time machine in Runaways had absolutely no payoff, and SHIELD's rules are hands down murkier than Endgame's, the fans still can't agree on the divergence point at the Battle of Chicago, and then with the time travel to the past in Season 7, will the rules stay consistent with Endgame, will they differ from Season 5's rules, since traveling to the past typically has different rules from traveling to the future? It's just so goddamn confusing, regardless of its impact on the timeline.

        Loading editor
    • Marvelus wrote: I've been putting together the episodes and events from Jessica Jones S3. Might do the same with Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. S6 and Cloak & Dagger S2 once I catch up. To help you a little, I really would have enjoyed to write the Daredevil S3 one, but I will not be able to. Sadly.

      BEJT, what did you think of the Timeline Quiz I did? I had the impression you would have nailed but now I think you disagree with some of the questions and answers xD. Did you also read the Essay I made about Marvel Studios and TV story?

      Thanks Marvelus. I'm speeding up on my write-ups now, hoping to catch up on a few months' worth in the next 7 weeks or so.

      I liked the quiz (and got 100% lol). Some of the English was a bit iffy, that was the only problem. But I'm glad you did it.

      I skim-read the essay and I liked it, I appreciate you doing that research and work, it's something I wish I had the time to do so I'm very glad to see someone else get it done.

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Thank you. And I appreciate that your argument is just as well thought out and well-eloquated (is that a term? It is now LOL)

      I don't know where that quote is from, but I absolutely agree.

      I just wish the MCU had never done time travel or time machines or time loops. This goes not only for Endgame, but also SHIELD and Runaways. That time machine in Runaways had absolutely no payoff, and SHIELD's rules are hands down murkier than Endgame's, the fans still can't agree on the divergence point at the Battle of Chicago, and then with the time travel to the past in Season 7, will the rules stay consistent with Endgame, will they differ from Season 5's rules, since traveling to the past typically has different rules from traveling to the future? It's just so goddamn confusing, regardless of its impact on the timeline.

      End of Civil War.

      Yeah I had no idea until the other day that people disagreed on the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.. We'll see over Season 7, they've said Marvel sign off on what they can and can't do when it comes to time travel.

        Loading editor
    • BEJT wrote:

      End of Civil War.

      Yeah I had no idea until the other day that people disagreed on the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.. We'll see over Season 7, they've said Marvel sign off on what they can and can't do when it comes to time travel.

      People disagree on the divergence point (some people say it's Yo-Yo letting Coulson die during CPR, which didn't happen, others say Coulson didn't always put the Serum in Daisy's gauntlets and took it, but we're explicitly shown while still in the loop video footage of Daisy yelling at Coulson to take the Serum after he's put it in her gauntlets and Elena tells Yo-Yo that no matter what they did, Coulson died anyways, I personally think it's Daisy noticing the Serum in her gauntlets). Unfortunately the show keeps it vague, and the characters don't know what broke the loop either.

      And they also disagree on the rules, mostly because of Endgame, since the arugments fall on the same two camps as Endgame (loop v. multiverse). I think the main difference though, is AoS5 transports the team to the future, then brings them back to the (relative) present. Endgame brings the team to the past, then back to the present.

      While AoS7 is going to be jumping all over the place, apparently, but definitely focused in the past. So while AoS5 can have the flexibility of sloughing off the alternate future into a separate timeline, AoS7 will either have the team traveling to alternate pasts or they will be caught in that whole "this only happened because we were there to help make it happen" scenario.

        Loading editor
    •   Loading editor
    • I mean, present-day Nebula is timestamped to 9 years after 2014, which would be 2023 so that already invalidates 2024 for Endgame.

      Plus, as far as we know no one traveled to just before the Snap (Clint is implied to in his test run, but this isn't confirmed), so that would invalidate the 2019 date (not to mention the fact that the Snap is already set in stone as 2018 thanks to Agents of SHIELD, regardless of Endgame and Infinity War's information).

      So those dates aren't really all that pertinent.

        Loading editor
    • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Time Travel (Edward Zachary Sunrose)

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: People disagree on the divergence point (some people say it's Yo-Yo letting Coulson die during CPR, which didn't happen, others say Coulson didn't always put the Serum in Daisy's gauntlets and took it, but we're explicitly shown while still in the loop video footage of Daisy yelling at Coulson to take the Serum after he's put it in her gauntlets and Elena tells Yo-Yo that no matter what they did, Coulson died anyways, I personally think it's Daisy noticing the Serum in her gauntlets). Unfortunately the show keeps it vague, and the characters don't know what broke the loop either.

      And they also disagree on the rules, mostly because of Endgame, since the arugments fall on the same two camps as Endgame (loop v. multiverse). I think the main difference though, is AoS5 transports the team to the future, then brings them back to the (relative) present. Endgame brings the team to the past, then back to the present.

      While AoS7 is going to be jumping all over the place, apparently, but definitely focused in the past. So while AoS5 can have the flexibility of sloughing off the alternate future into a separate timeline, AoS7 will either have the team traveling to alternate pasts or they will be caught in that whole "this only happened because we were there to help make it happen" scenario.

      With the divergence point, we have, in order:

      • Coulson giving Daisy her suit, in which he has slipped the serum. Unclear if this is the first event of the new branch or if the timeline hasn't split yet and he always slipped her the serum.
      • Mack entering the tunnel to get Polly. If it's already split, this should nonetheless happen in both timelines, considering it's strongly implied that this is the event that gets Mack and Polly killed in the original timeline. But it might not have split yet.
      • Daisy gets off the Quinjet and is filmed shouting at Coulson to take the serum. If it's already split, this should nonetheless happen in both timelines, considering we see this footage in the future.
      • Fitz reentering the room and reminding May that Mack and Polly both are supposed to die. It's possible that the timeline hasn't split yet and they were just then unsuccessful in rescuing them in the original timeline, but it's starting to feel like the split should have happened by now.
      • Mack and Polly are rescued. By this point, the timeline should be split, unless for some reason Mack and Polly still went on to die while May and Fitz got out.
      • Polly reunites with Robin, pretty much definitely a new timeline by this point. You could argue that maybe that just wasn't the event where Mack and Polly were supposed to die, but it very much is implied to be.
      • The rubble falls on Fitz, fatally wounding him. It's definitely a new timeline by this point, as Fitz doesn't die in the original timeline. It would also further support the idea that by their rescue, the timeline has split, since it would mean Fitz isn't in that same position at that time in the original timeline.
      • Robin senses the timeline has recently split, and that something is different, edited to imply that she's referring to Daisy having/seeing the serum.
      • Daisy spots the serum in her gauntlet.

      So basically, the two options really are it either splits when Coulson puts the serum in the gauntlet (depending on whether he always did or if that's a new thing), or around Fitz returning and saying that Mack and Polly are both supposed to die (just before or just after) and then Daisy spots the serum this time because the timeline has just split a few minutes ago so things are allowed to be different this time and that just happens to involve her spotting it.

      I've always seen it as the former, mainly because of the whole "Coulson will put the pieces together", that ultimately it comes down to Coulson managing to save the world. Some other reasons are:

      • That feels more right to me as an actual decision rather than just Fitz happening to get to that room at the right time.
      • While the idea of the "timeline has split, meaning that events just are able to play out differently" with Daisy spotting the serum works fine, it's not a great explanation, as there's no actual reason from the new timeline that that should play out any differently. If something was done differently in the building with Fitz where the timeline split that would affect the street where Daisy is fighting Talbot in at least a tiny way, it would make more sense for why her arm would be in a different position, but there isn't anything, so it would purely be coincidence of the new timeline for some reason being different immediately. As well as that, again, Coulson making an active decision feels better than a coincidence.

      There is one problem, for me, with it being Coulson. It's not exactly like "Coulson made a self-sacrifice that saved the world this time". Because the problem is that that would mean there's a timeline where Coulson doesn't make the sacrifice he clearly would always choose to make, but also, we know that Daisy shouts at Coulson exactly the same way both times, so presumably for exactly the same reason: he hasn't taken the serum. Which means that the difference is just that in the original timeline, Coulson still chose to make the sacrifice and not take it (good), but it just didn't occur to him, or something to that effect, to put it in the gauntlet. And that, for the same reason as the other coincidental incidents mentioned above, doesn't quite feel right.

      Still though, it seems to me that that's the split.

      Anyway, the disagreement I was referring to was not that, but the fact that I recently learned that Marvel Database and Shabook feel that it is necessary for there to be three universes involved, not two, for there to be three versions of Fitz. I think Marvel Database also seems to feel that because traditionally in Marvel Comics, every jump in time takes you to some alternate reality, and they're considering this all part of a Marvel multiverse with uniform rules across the board so had to find a complicated way involving identical universes for 2091 to be an alternate universe from the start despite Fitz sleeping through to it, leaving the weapons in the wall, it being a loop, Yo-Yo's frustration at being stuck in the loop, the "74 years later", etc.. I had no idea anyone posited a third universe until recently. Obviously, for the reasons I explained recently when this came up, I personally think this is misguided and there is absolutely no necessity for a third universe, but also don't want to come across as argumentative.

      I don't think the fact that, if one were to accept that Endgame involved a jump every time, the agents going to the future instead of the past would be the difference. The Avengers going "back to the future", if you will, when they return to 2023 is not so much a jump as it is a yank back, since they hit more of a return button (or in the Hawkeye test run situation, it's programmed to activate that return after a few minutes), hence why they get back to their timeline and don't just go to the 2023 of these new timelines (why I have a problem with the theory of Steve using the GPS to get to 2023), and that would be why they don't create a new timeline when they go forwards in time (if indeed going back in time were to create a new timeline). I think (again, if accepting that every jump in time created a new timeline) if they were to just jump forwards from 2023 to, say, 2024, they would still create an alternate timeline, and then hit the return button and go back to their 2023 in the same way.

      If there is a difference in the time travel rules between Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and Endgame, that being if every jump in time in Endgame creates a new timeline, in my opinion it's much more likely it's to do with the medium of travel. So Quantum Realm time travel involves, for some hand-wave-y "quantum/dimension/reality" technobabble reason, creating new realities, while the White Monolith, being purely a stone relating to time, purely shifts you in time.

      I'm definitely interested in what Season 7 will do, but also grateful we have about 9 months before it kicks off.


      Avengers: Endgame Möbius Strip Scene (MrRLopez, Edward Zachary Sunrose)

      I had no idea about this, thank you. The 2008 and 2019 have no significance really since they're not tied to any sort of event. The 2024 can obviously be ignored due to the mountain of evidence otherwise, maybe Tony is just deciding, "I need to programme in a date that we could be jumping back from in the near-ish future, I'll just plug in whatever near future date soon comes to mind, it doesn't really matter."

      Nonetheless, as always, great to find out about this stuff to add to the evidence list.

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: I mean, present-day Nebula is timestamped to 9 years after 2014, which would be 2023 so that already invalidates 2024 for Endgame.

      Plus, as far as we know no one traveled to just before the Snap (Clint is implied to in his test run, but this isn't confirmed), so that would invalidate the 2019 date (not to mention the fact that the Snap is already set in stone as 2018 thanks to Agents of SHIELD, regardless of Endgame and Infinity War's information).

      So those dates aren't really all that pertinent.

      Yeah, it's not particularly pertinent. Still good to be aware, though.


      Loki (additional)

      A report says Loki will "change historical events" in his show. Obviously it's not possible to "change" them, so who knows what's going on here? Every development about this show I become less and less interested and actually somewhat annoyed. I was fine with the idea of a Loki TV show, not supposed to be as important as the films, that's a prequel about his adventures in history. But if it's supposed to be as important as the films, I don't feel Loki has earned an instalment of that level on his own, and it's about an alternate timeline Loki whom I have no reason to care about, will be set in an alternate timeline or multiple alternate timelines which will be a pain for chronology and I have no reason to care about events in alternate timelines, it's more Loki and I feel he's run his course, and it involves more annoying time travel, plus the time travel sounds potentially problematic. Ugh. I don't get why this is supposedly, from some sources, fans' most anticipated instalment of Phase Four. It's easily my least.


      Two More Avengers: Endgame Time Travel Notes (additional)

      In writing my blog, I managed to find the exact original source of the most recent Markus and McFeely quotes, Backstory magazine, whose editor hosted their SDCC panel. And they were offering this issue free, so I've got an online version and read the full interview, and there was another interesting quote.

      This is purely for notes purposes, to make sure everyone's aware of the information, and not for argument purposes.

      Markus and McFeely have only, in the past, very lightly touched on the comment about the timelines being erased, but here they do say it explicitly.

      "What would you tell the people asking about where Thor's hammer, Mjolnir, is?"
      McFeely: "I think he brought it back to Asgard."
      Markus: "He gave it back to the Thor of that time."
      McFeely: "Which was actually probably unnecessary if you take the stone because you're going to erase that time - that branch where he doesn't have it - anyway."

      Whether they are right or not is of course debated alongside the rest of the Endgame rules and that's fine, I'm not even passionate about the erasing thing the way I am about Cap, but all of this has been discussed to death as we all agree and doesn't need to be debated further. This is just for notes/awareness.

      Also, Feige did a Q&A with Empire, the audio for which will be uploaded in a couple of weeks. As a subscriber, I was actually given the opportunity to apply for tickets to this Q&A and I did apply, but didn't get them unfortunately, it was a raffle and there were just something like 55 tickets available. Anyway, he Maz Kanata-d the Cap question, the same response he gave when asked about Sif not being in Ragnarok in 2017. Didn't expect him to give an answer after his response on the AMA about it.

        Loading editor
    • An easy explanation of the loop, explaining the three Leo Fitz portrayed in Aos. I still don't understand why some people doubt the existence of at least three different universes in Season 5

      • The Agents from Earth-A travel to the apocalyptic future of Earth-B, where they are joined by the native Leo Fitz from Earth-B. They travel back to Earth-A, but the planet is destroyed. They survive in the Lighthouse, A-Simmons and B-Fitz eventually have a grandson, while A-Fitz is frozen.
      • Given than Leo Fitz from Earth-B awoke in an apocalyptic future, that means the Agents from Earth-B travel to the apocalyptic future of Earth-C, where they are joined by the native Leo Fitz from Earth-C. They travel back to Earth-B, but the planet is destroyed. They survive in the Lighthouse, B-Simmons and C-Fitz eventually have a grandson, while B-Fitz is frozen.
      • Given than Leo Fitz from Earth-C awoke in an apocalyptic future, that means the Agents from Earth-C travel to the apocalyptic future of Earth-D, where they are joined by the native Leo Fitz from Earth-D. They travel back to Earth-D, but the planet is destroyed. They survive in the Lighthouse, C-Simmons and D-Fitz eventually have a grandson, while C-Fitz is frozen.
      • Given than Leo Fitz from Earth-D awoke in an apocalyptic future, that means the Agents from Earth-D travel to the apocalyptic future of Earth-E, where they are joined by the native Leo Fitz from Earth-E. They travel back to Earth-D, but the planet is destroyed. They survive in the Lighthouse, D-Simmons and E-Fitz eventually have a grandson, while D-Fitz is frozen.

      • Given than Leo Fitz from Earth-TRN676 awoke in an apocalyptic future, that means the Agents from Earth-TRN676 travel to the apocalyptic future of Earth-TRN679, where they are joined by the native Leo Fitz from Earth-TRN679. They travel back to Earth-TRN676, but the planet is destroyed. They survive in the Lighthouse, TRN676-Simmons and TRN679-Fitz eventually have a grandson, while TRN676-Fitz is frozen.
      • Given than Leo Fitz from Earth-TRN676 awoke in an apocalyptic future, that means the Agents from Earth-199999 travel to the apocalyptic future of Earth-TRN676, where they are joined by the native Leo Fitz from Earth-TRN676. They travel back to Earth-199999. They manage to save the planet and break the loop. TRN676-Fitz dies, while 199999-Fitz is frozen.
        Loading editor
    • I'd Also like to add that Deke's multiverse theory was referenced again in S6, leading to the impression that the writers intend for that to be the reasoning.

        Loading editor
    • BEJT wrote:

      With the divergence point, we have, in order:

      • Coulson giving Daisy her suit, in which he has slipped the serum. Unclear if this is the first event of the new branch or if the timeline hasn't split yet and he always slipped her the serum.
      • Mack entering the tunnel to get Polly. If it's already split, this should nonetheless happen in both timelines, considering it's strongly implied that this is the event that gets Mack and Polly killed in the original timeline. But it might not have split yet.
      • Daisy gets off the Quinjet and is filmed shouting at Coulson to take the serum. If it's already split, this should nonetheless happen in both timelines, considering we see this footage in the future.
      • Fitz reentering the room and reminding May that Mack and Polly both are supposed to die. It's possible that the timeline hasn't split yet and they were just then unsuccessful in rescuing them in the original timeline, but it's starting to feel like the split should have happened by now.
      • Mack and Polly are rescued. By this point, the timeline should be split, unless for some reason Mack and Polly still went on to die while May and Fitz got out.
      • Polly reunites with Robin, pretty much definitely a new timeline by this point. You could argue that maybe that just wasn't the event where Mack and Polly were supposed to die, but it very much is implied to be.
      • The rubble falls on Fitz, fatally wounding him. It's definitely a new timeline by this point, as Fitz doesn't die in the original timeline. It would also further support the idea that by their rescue, the timeline has split, since it would mean Fitz isn't in that same position at that time in the original timeline.
      • Robin senses the timeline has recently split, and that something is different, edited to imply that she's referring to Daisy having/seeing the serum.
      • Daisy spots the serum in her gauntlet.

      So basically, the two options really are it either splits when Coulson puts the serum in the gauntlet (depending on whether he always did or if that's a new thing), or around Fitz returning and saying that Mack and Polly are both supposed to die (just before or just after) and then Daisy spots the serum this time because the timeline has just split a few minutes ago so things are allowed to be different this time and that just happens to involve her spotting it.

      I've always seen it as the former, mainly because of the whole "Coulson will put the pieces together", that ultimately it comes down to Coulson managing to save the world. Some other reasons are:

      • That feels more right to me as an actual decision rather than just Fitz happening to get to that room at the right time.
      • While the idea of the "timeline has split, meaning that events just are able to play out differently" with Daisy spotting the serum works fine, it's not a great explanation, as there's no actual reason from the new timeline that that should play out any differently. If something was done differently in the building with Fitz where the timeline split that would affect the street where Daisy is fighting Talbot in at least a tiny way, it would make more sense for why her arm would be in a different position, but there isn't anything, so it would purely be coincidence of the new timeline for some reason being different immediately. As well as that, again, Coulson making an active decision feels better than a coincidence.

      There is one problem, for me, with it being Coulson. It's not exactly like "Coulson made a self-sacrifice that saved the world this time". Because the problem is that that would mean there's a timeline where Coulson doesn't make the sacrifice he clearly would always choose to make, but also, we know that Daisy shouts at Coulson exactly the same way both times, so presumably for exactly the same reason: he hasn't taken the serum. Which means that the difference is just that in the original timeline, Coulson still chose to make the sacrifice and not take it (good), but it just didn't occur to him, or something to that effect, to put it in the gauntlet. And that, for the same reason as the other coincidental incidents mentioned above, doesn't quite feel right.

      Still though, it seems to me that that's the split.

      For me, the reason I thought the major split was Daisy finding the Serum before being absorbed is actually a few reasons: - The original plan before the team realized there would only be enough serum for one dose was to have someone willingly be absorbed by Talbot while holding an Odium-infused version of the Serum, in order to poison him. That already foreshadows that Talbot would be able to absorb the properties of the Serum, no matter which version was used. Including the power-up effect of the version Daisy ended up taking. - Daisy states early on (and we as viewers know) she's not powerful enough to quake the world apart. And even though Talbot can control a ship the size of a small town, that's not really world-breaker material. - As you said, the way the episode is edited with Robin's statement, it's edited in a way that implies that Daisy finding the Serum is the one big change. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely think that Fitz dying and Yo-Yo giving Coulson CPR are also major divergences as well, just because of how the episode frames all three occurences. I'm still so incredibly confused by Season 5's time loop, especially since they never gave us a dedicated episode of the key points in the original loop.

        Loading editor
    • Shabook wrote: An easy explanation of the loop, explaining the three Leo Fitz portrayed in Aos. I still don't understand why some people doubt the existence of at least three different universes in Season 5

      • The Agents from Earth-A travel to the apocalyptic future of Earth-B, where they are joined by the native Leo Fitz from Earth-B. They travel back to Earth-A, but the planet is destroyed. They survive in the Lighthouse, A-Simmons and B-Fitz eventually have a grandson, while A-Fitz is frozen.
      • Given than Leo Fitz from Earth-B awoke in an apocalyptic future, that means the Agents from Earth-B travel to the apocalyptic future of Earth-C, where they are joined by the native Leo Fitz from Earth-C. They travel back to Earth-B, but the planet is destroyed. They survive in the Lighthouse, B-Simmons and C-Fitz eventually have a grandson, while B-Fitz is frozen.
      • Given than Leo Fitz from Earth-C awoke in an apocalyptic future, that means the Agents from Earth-C travel to the apocalyptic future of Earth-D, where they are joined by the native Leo Fitz from Earth-D. They travel back to Earth-D, but the planet is destroyed. They survive in the Lighthouse, C-Simmons and D-Fitz eventually have a grandson, while C-Fitz is frozen.
      • Given than Leo Fitz from Earth-D awoke in an apocalyptic future, that means the Agents from Earth-D travel to the apocalyptic future of Earth-E, where they are joined by the native Leo Fitz from Earth-E. They travel back to Earth-D, but the planet is destroyed. They survive in the Lighthouse, D-Simmons and E-Fitz eventually have a grandson, while D-Fitz is frozen.

      ...

      • Given than Leo Fitz from Earth-TRN676 awoke in an apocalyptic future, that means the Agents from Earth-TRN676 travel to the apocalyptic future of Earth-TRN679, where they are joined by the native Leo Fitz from Earth-TRN679. They travel back to Earth-TRN676, but the planet is destroyed. They survive in the Lighthouse, TRN676-Simmons and TRN679-Fitz eventually have a grandson, while TRN676-Fitz is frozen.
      • Given than Leo Fitz from Earth-TRN676 awoke in an apocalyptic future, that means the Agents from Earth-199999 travel to the apocalyptic future of Earth-TRN676, where they are joined by the native Leo Fitz from Earth-TRN676. They travel back to Earth-199999. They manage to save the planet and break the loop. TRN676-Fitz dies, while 199999-Fitz is frozen.

      Thank you for taking the time to write this. I had been interested in the reasoning behind the theory, and figured it was something like this.

      This theory is internally consistent and could work if necessary to deviate from what the show presents so as to fit some wider rule. But I have to nonetheless say that it is not necessary, when you can just stick to what the show presents, and this is not what the show presents, for the following reasons:

      • The MCU has not yet established entirely parallel universes, only universes created from splits in the timeline.
      • The White Monolith is purely a "time" Monolith, so would purely shift you in time, it's not a "time and parallel universe" Monolith.
      • Robin sees the future, not the future of an alternate universe.
      • Enoch is trying to change the future. There's no need if that's not the future.
      • The "74 years later" of Rewind is "74 years later", not "74 years later, in another universe".
      • The intention of Rewind is clearly that the Fitz you see at the end is the same character you've been following for the whole episode, as well as things like him then joining the rest of the team and showing them the weapons he hid in the wall. It's clearly meant to be him that put them there, not some other Fitz. This theory involves an added assumption that the show suddenly changes focus to a different Fitz during Rewind.
      • In The End, Simmons talks about how happy she is that it turns out time can be changed and is fluid (albeit through splintering the timeline). This theory involves no changing of time.
      • It is established as a time loop, not just "something that has occurred identically in a lot of alternate universes", which isn't a loop but more of a zig-zag: lots of straight parallel lines, with a diagonal jump across between each one, being the Fitz that travels across each time.
      • The team are obsessed with breaking the loop, and say that they know if one of them dies early who isn't supposed to, that will be proof that they have broken the loop. If one of them dies early and they're in a different universe to the one with the dystopian future, then that's not evidence of anything. That just means that unfortunately, in this universe, that character has died earlier than in most. They could still be on course for the end of the world. The importance of the idea of one of them dying is it means time has been changed (split), so they are no longer bound by predestination to not save the world.
      • Simmons says in Season 6 that they're not entirely sure how they changed time (again, changed time), implying it is not a scientific reason such as parallel universes.
      • Simmons, Fitz, and Yo-Yo go through various death-defying incidents and survive because the time loop is already established that they survive into the future, they can't die because they don't die. They don't die until their timeline's future, so they can't die until their timeline's future.
      • The timeline only splits in The End, as Robin declares that she feels the change in time, and everything is trapped in the time loop until that point, playing out identically to how it always did no matter how hard they try.
      • At numerous times, the agents try desperately for things to be even slightly different. They don't manage because that's the way time is. In this theory, they are not in any way bound by predestination.
      • In Past Life, future Yo-Yo tries desperately to say something different to what she heard herself say when she was younger. She then explains that everything she is saying is exactly what she heard herself say, and that even in saying that she is saying what she always said, in a frustrating, unavoidable predestination. If this is Earth-TRN676 2091 Yo-Yo speaking to Earth-199999 2017 Yo-Yo, by this theory, Earth-TRN676 Yo-Yo when she was her younger, 2091 self, would have spoken to Earth-TRN679 Yo-Yo - another universe's Yo-Yo. So there would be absolutely no reason why, no matter how hard she tries, she is caught in a frustrating, unavoidable predestination of the conversation to be identical to what she always heard.
      • If the White Monolith were to transport you to another universe, why would they end up back in their old one when they go from 2091 to 2017? It's not like they're just switching it backwards, because they don't go back to when they came from, they go back to 7 months after they left (that's not just a thing from timeline theories, it's absolute fact that it's over 6 months later because the Quinjet has been left where Fitz and Hunter parked it in Rewind, over 6 months after the agents left). Plus they don't have the Monolith that sent them there to work with and just reverse it, they're rebuilding the future version of that Monolith.
      • There is no need for three universes to have three versions of Fitz, as explained above, because there were two simultaneous Fitzes of different ages (a 30-year-old Fitz and a 104-year-old Fitz who was once the 30-year-old Fitz) around in 2018 when the timeline was split, therefore giving you two Fitzes in the new timeline, a 104-year-old who dies and a 30-year-old out in space no longer destined to become that 104-year-old. That's what happens in The End, essentially, "We lost our Fitz, but at least we have an old backup out there." And then they have to catch him up on what's happened since.

      So I hope you'll see why I personally view this situation as:

      • Go with what the show presents, a time loop that they manage to break

      or

      • Try to fudge what the show presents quite a lot, so as to fit a different theory outside of what the show puts forward, with the only motive to go in this direction being to fit the way the comics rules work.

      That's the way I perceive this, as I cannot see any other reason to want to try to make it not a time loop that's broken.

      Again though, I greatly appreciate the time you have taken here, as it has allowed greater understanding and more informed conversation and points to be made.

      ProBot1227 wrote: I'd Also like to add that Deke's multiverse theory was referenced again in S6, leading to the impression that the writers intend for that to be the reasoning.

      No one's disputing a multiverse. His comments about the multiverse are just like the Endgame comments about Back to the Future, it's establishing that you can't rewrite a singular timeline - they worry about Deke blinking out of existence if you can, but it turns out you can't, so Deke was right, you can split the timeline.

        Loading editor
    • Shabook
      Shabook removed this reply because:
      Duplicate
      02:44, August 11, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • BEJT wrote:

      • The MCU has not yet established entirely parallel universes, only universes created from splits in the timeline.

      They are, by definition, alternate universes.

      BEJT wrote:

      • The White Monolith is purely a "time" Monolith, so would purely shift you in time, it's not a "time and parallel universe" Monolith.

      That brings you to a different point in time in a parallel universe, just like the time machine in endgame.

      BEJT wrote:

      • Robin sees the future, not the future of an alternate universe.

      That means that the future of the current universe was going as apocalyptic as the one in an alternate universe, until it was changed, and she saw the change.

      BEJT wrote:

      • Enoch is trying to change the future. There's no need if that's not the future.

      The future of the current universe was going to be as apocalyptic as in the alternate universe, unless prevented and changed.

      BEJT wrote:

      • The "74 years later" of Rewind is "74 years later", not "74 years later, in another universe".

      The events of Rewind are exactly the same for every universe caught in the so-called loop, as Leo Fitz gets frozen in every one of them.

      BEJT wrote:

      • The intention of Rewind is clearly that the Fitz you see at the end is the same character you've been following for the whole episode, as well as things like him then joining the rest of the team and showing them the weapons he hid in the wall. It's clearly meant to be him that put them there, not some other Fitz. This theory involves an added assumption that the show suddenly changes focus to a different Fitz during Rewind.

      The backstory of Leo Fitz is the same for every universe Doppelganger of him up until the events of The End. That means that both the 199999 currently alive Fitz, and the alternate currently deceased Fitz lived through the exact same events in their respective universes

      BEJT wrote:

      • In The End, Simmons talks about how happy she is that it turns out time can be changed and is fluid (albeit through splintering the timeline). This theory involves no changing of time.

      That means that not every universe is destined to live through the same outcome despite countless others did. Just like the alternate universes seen by Doctor Strange in Infinity War.

      BEJT wrote:

      • It is established as a time loop, not just "something that has occurred identically in a lot of alternate universes", which isn't a loop but more of a zig-zag: lots of straight parallel lines, with a diagonal jump across between each one, being the Fitz that travels across each time.

      Not every viewer is going to use their time to write essays about a TV series. The phrase "time loop" is easier to apply and understand by characters without scientific knowledge. Every iteration of Yo-yo perceived it as a loop, as she saw "her past self" in the Lighthouse. She came from an alternate universe where their lives had been identical up until that point.

      BEJT wrote:

      • The team are obsessed with breaking the loop, and say that they know if one of them dies early who isn't supposed to, that will be proof that they have broken the loop. If one of them dies early and they're in a different universe to the one with the dystopian future, then that's not evidence of anything. That just means that unfortunately, in this universe, that character has died earlier than in most. They could still be on course for the end of the world. The importance of the idea of one of them dying is it means time has been changed (split), so they are no longer bound by predestination to not save the world.

      If one of them dies early and they're in a different universe to the one with the dystopian future, then that means that the outcome is going to be different. Whether that means that Earth will be destroyed or not, is unknown. Therefore, this point proves nothing in either case. A universe where May, Fitz, Simmons or Yo-Yo died earlier simply means that is going to be different than the one seen in The Last Day.

      BEJT wrote:

      • Simmons says in Season 6 that they're not entirely sure how they changed time (again, changed time), implying it is not a scientific reason such as parallel universes.

      Again, this proves nothing at all. That Simmons is unaware of it doesn't mean it's not true.

      BEJT wrote:

      • Simmons, Fitz, and Yo-Yo go through various death-defying incidents and survive because the time loop is already established that they survive into the future, they can't die because they don't die. They don't die until their timeline's future, so they can't die until their timeline's future.

      Again, this proves nothing at all. Fitz, Simmons an Yo-yo don't die in Earth-199999, just like they didn't in other universes. Most characters have gone through various death-defying incidents and survive, whether they were involved in loops or just because the actors had a contract.

      BEJT wrote:

      • The timeline only splits in The End, as Robin declares that she feels the change in time, and everything is trapped in the time loop until that point, playing out identically to how it always did no matter how hard they try.

      The future of the current universe was going to be as apocalyptic as in the alternate universe, unless prevented and changed. And that changed happened there, in this universe, unlike the countless others.


      BEJT wrote:

      • At numerous times, the agents try desperately for things to be even slightly different. They don't manage because that's the way time is. In this theory, they are not in any way bound by predestination.

      The future of the current universe was going to be as apocalyptic as in the alternate universe, unless prevented and changed. The agents were unaware of the details of the universe, and therefore played them out coincidentally just like they did in other universe. After all, it's pretty easy to realize that a person would make similar decissions in similar contexts if they are unaware of the actual outcome.

      BEJT wrote:

      • In Past Life, future Yo-Yo tries desperately to say something different to what she heard herself say when she was younger. She then explains that everything she is saying is exactly what she heard herself say, and that even in saying that she is saying what she always said, in a frustrating, unavoidable predestination. If this is Earth-TRN676 2091 Yo-Yo speaking to Earth-199999 2017 Yo-Yo, by this theory, Earth-TRN676 Yo-Yo when she was her younger, 2091 self, would have spoken to Earth-TRN679 Yo-Yo - another universe's Yo-Yo. So there would be absolutely no reason why, no matter how hard she tries, she is caught in a frustrating, unavoidable predestination of the conversation to be identical to what she always heard.

      That's exactly what happened, alternate versions of Yo-Yo trying to say something different, only to end up saying the same. Essentially, every alternate Yo-Yo caught in the loop has lived through the same, has the same personality, and ends up saying the same words.

      BEJT wrote:

      • If the White Monolith were to transport you to another universe, why would they end up back in their old one when they go from 2091 to 2017? It's not like they're just switching it backwards, because they don't go back to when they came from, they go back to 7 months after they left (that's not just a thing from timeline theories, it's absolute fact that it's over 6 months later because the Quinjet has been left where Fitz and Hunter parked it in Rewind, over 6 months after the agents left). Plus they don't have the Monolith that sent them there to work with and just reverse it, they're rebuilding the future version of that Monolith.

      And where exactly says that the Monolith needs to return you to the point where it took you? Just like the exit point for the Black Monolith moved in space as both Maveth and Earth moved, the exit point for the White Monolith moved in time as time passed in both universes. Again, another point that proves nothing.

      BEJT wrote:

      • There is no need for three universes to have three versions of Fitz, as explained above, because there were two simultaneous Fitzes of different ages (a 30-year-old Fitz and a 104-year-old Fitz who was once the 30-year-old Fitz) around in 2018 when the timeline was split, therefore giving you two Fitzes in the new timeline, a 104-year-old who dies and a 30-year-old out in space no longer destined to become that 104-year-old. That's what happens in The End, essentially, "We lost our Fitz, but at least we have an old backup out there." And then they have to catch him up on what's happened since.
        Loading editor
    • Shabook wrote: They are, by definition, alternate universes.

      Alternate universes created through splitting a universe in two, as opposed to simply two completely separate universes. Like monozygotic vs. dizygotic twins.

      Shabook wrote: That brings you to a different point in time in a parallel universe, just like the time machine in endgame.

      The writers have explained that the time machine does not create alternate universes, but I'm not going to into Endgame now.

      This doesn't address the point of why a stone purely linked with time would send you to an alternate reality when that's not its power. They even say it moves you purely in time when Fitz explains why they haven't moved location.

      Shabook wrote: That means that the future of the current universe was going as apocalyptic as the one in an alternate universe, until it was changed, and she saw the change.

      Time cannot be literally changed, only split. Fitz explains it in Spacetime, we are just experiencing the fourth dimension in three-dimensional moments. Time doesn't unspool and if you look into the future at one point you'll see one thing while if you look into the future at another point you'll see another. You'd just see the future.

      Shabook wrote: The future of the current universe was going to be as apocalyptic as in the alternate universe, unless prevented and changed.

      But by this theory, it was never going to be.

      Shabook wrote: The events of Rewind are exactly the same for every universe caught in the so-called loop, as Leo Fitz gets frozen in every one of them.

      Shabook wrote: The backstory of Leo Fitz is the same for every universe Doppelganger of him up until the events of The End. That means that both the 199999 currently alive Fitz, and the alternate currently deceased Fitz lived through the exact same events in their respective universes

      I understand that the events are identical, but that doesn't change the fact that the show presents it as the same Fitz, especially with the "74 years later' essentially telling you that.

      My point is not to say that the theory does not make sense. As I mentioned, it's internally consistent. My point is, what is the motive to choose this theory over the much simpler one that the show presents? Why would you want it to be this way?

      Shabook wrote: That means that not every universe is destined to live through the same outcome despite countless others did. Just like the alternate universes seen by Doctor Strange in Infinity War.

      "But he'll be so happy to know that time is not fixed. It's a fluid, ever-changing, beautiful thing." She is not saying, "He'll be so happy to know that while time can't be changed, in some universes, things turn out nicely."

      Shabook wrote: Not every viewer is going to use their time to write essays about a TV series. The phrase "time loop" is easier to apply and understand by characters without scientific knowledge. Every iteration of Yo-yo perceived it as a loop, as she saw "her past self" in the Lighthouse. She came from an alternate universe where their lives had been identical up until that point.

      I understand, it's possible to fudge the show referring to a time loop. I think again, the main point I want to stress here is: OK, but why shouldn't it be a time loop when it can be and that's what the show says?

      Shabook wrote: If one of them dies early and they're in a different universe to the one with the dystopian future, then that means that the outcome is going to be different. Whether that means that Earth will be destroyed or not, is unknown. Therefore, this point proves nothing in either case. A universe where May, Fitz, Simmons or Yo-Yo died earlier simply means that is going to be different than the one seen in The Last Day.

      I know that it only means the outcome is going to be different, and whether that means that the Earth will be destroyed or not is still unknown. However, the stress in the point was supposed to be that the reason an early death is important is because it means they have broken away from predestination. In this version of events, that type of predestination is not ever at play.

      Shabook wrote: Again, this proves nothing at all. That Simmons is unaware of it doesn't mean it's not true.

      Which is fine from an in-universe character perspective, but not an out-of-universe writer perspective, where the writers are writing through Simmons to the audience.

      This is the same as in-universe timeline errors, when you have to consider, "OK, from an in-universe perspective, yes, it's very human for someone to simply miscalculate slightly in their head or misremember. However, this is not just a human speaking, this is the writer putting, through that piece of dialogue, a timeline statement across." So when you have to take the former, it's fudging things. And that's my point here, this theory works well enough if you fudge things, but why would you want to when you don't have to?

      Shabook wrote: Again, this proves nothing at all. Fitz, Simmons an Yo-yo don't die in Earth-199999, just like they didn't in other universes. Most characters have gone through various death-defying incidents and survive, whether they were involved in loops or just because the actors had a contract.

      Sure, it's possible they just didn't die out of luck. And it can be argued as well that in a time loop, they don't die because of luck, because it's a "chicken and the egg" situation: they can't die because they survive these events, they survive these events because they can't die, they can't die because they survive these events, etc.. But the reason Simmons knows she can do it is because they know they are stuck in a time loop. And I know the argument can again be made that, well, Simmons just isn't aware. But that doesn't change the fact that the writers are presenting a time loop.

      Shabook wrote: That's exactly what happened, alternate versions of Yo-Yo trying to say something different, only to end up saying the same. Essentially, every alternate Yo-Yo caught in the loop has lived through the same, has the same personality, and ends up saying the same words.

      This is not, however, a matter of coincidence where you would end up saying the same thing in the same situation. This is a matter of actively trying with every syllable to deviate. She finds she cannot because essentially, time won't let her. It's a horrible, nightmare-ish scenario where she cannot say the conversation in any other way no matter how hard she tries because it can't be different from the conversation she heard, because it is that conversation. The only reason she is unable to deviate in any way is because she is bound by time, once you remove that, i.e. if it is not literally the same conversation, then there is no reason why she would not be able to say something even a tiny bit different.

      Shabook wrote: And where exactly says that the Monolith needs to return you to the point where it took you? Just like the exit point for the Black Monolith moved in space as both Maveth and Earth moved, the exit point for the White Monolith moved in time as time passed in both universes. Again, another point that proves nothing.

      My point was: Why would the White Monolith send them specifically back to their old reality and not just to another reality this time? Exactly, "Where exactly says that the Monolith needs to return you to the point where it took you?"

      I then was addressing a possible counterpoint to that: They are not making another jump in time (and thus, by this theory, to another reality) to 2017, they are simply reversing the process that got them there. And saying that no, they aren't, because they don't go back to the same time they left, nor did the Monolith come with them on their journey for them to work off it.

      I also feel that I should say I don't appreciate the, what I perceive to be, slightly belittling tone of a phrase like "Again, another point that proves nothing", Shabook. I am engaging you in fair, thorough conversation and trying to not use that sort of tone in my dismantling of points. I hope it's OK just to mention this.

      Shabook wrote: "Having no need" is the worst argument you may use, and the main one I dismantled with the explanation above. There are three Fitzes from three different universes actually seen in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., each and every one of them displaced to the past of an alternate universe, where they lived a life until their death. The only one who has not been displaced is the one native to Earth-199999 who was frozen like the rest, but didn't get to become Boshtok the Marauder.

      I am not using "having no need" as an argument in favour of a point. I am using it, in this context, to say that the argument for this theory seems to be "There is a need for there to be three universes for there to be three Fitzes" and "This is how Marvel Comics works". Then, in saying there is no need, that was me saying, "That first argument isn't valid, since it's not the case."

        Loading editor
    • I agree with BEJT. Shabook's explanation works but there isn't anything in the show that would point to it being true. It should be treated as a theory.

      What we're shown is that all the agents (including Fitz from different means) travel from the present of Earth-A to the future of Earth-A. Then, they come back to the present of Earth-A some months after they left, and then create Earth-B which is now the main MCU timeline. We're also shown that the agents had already tried to change Earth-A's future but failed and were stuck in a time loop until they managed to split universes in the S5 finale.

      I don't see why you would think the Monolith transported them to an alternate universe future, instead of just the future of their own universe. Unless you have a source stating that, it would just be speculation.

        Loading editor
    • I do agree with Shabook, just like Strange saw multiple outcomes of the upcoming conflict from the Infinity War and beyond, he saw multiple realities (alternate universes) where different results would have happened. This is the same just with the Monolith being involved.

        Loading editor
    • I too agree with Shabook. The End confirms that Fitz's conception of time-space was wrong, because it didn't considered the theory of the universal wavefunction [1], it was a deterministic approach that was more similar to Bohr-Einstein interpretation of time and quantum physic.

        Loading editor
    • Don't have more time for debating until two weeks later, but I'd like you to consider that alternate realities are a fact, and there is a whole upcoming TV series dedicated to them.

      And given that, I'm afraid this is going to be this wiki's official position regarding it. Alternate universes as opposed to "timelines".

        Loading editor
    • DaenerysTheMadKhal58 wrote: I agree with BEJT. Shabook's explanation works but there isn't anything in the show that would point to it being true. It should be treated as a theory.

      What we're shown is that all the agents (including Fitz from different means) travel from the present of Earth-A to the future of Earth-A. Then, they come back to the present of Earth-A some months after they left, and then create Earth-B which is now the main MCU timeline. We're also shown that the agents had already tried to change Earth-A's future but failed and were stuck in a time loop until they managed to split universes in the S5 finale.

      I don't see why you would think the Monolith transported them to an alternate universe future, instead of just the future of their own universe. Unless you have a source stating that, it would just be speculation.

      You put this very well DaenerysTheMadKhal58, thank you. This is exactly how I've perceived this situation - that it works but there isn't anything actually pointing to it being true, and that there is no reason to make the assumption it transported them to an alternate universe future instead of their own, that that's just speculation.

      Marvelus wrote: I do agree with Shabook, just like Strange saw multiple outcomes of the upcoming conflict from the Infinity War and beyond, he saw multiple realities (alternate universes) where different results would have happened. This is the same just with the Monolith being involved.

      What?

      Elledy92 wrote: I too agree with Shabook. The End confirms that Fitz's conception of time-space was wrong, because it didn't considered the theory of the universal wavefunction [1], it was a deterministic approach that was more similar to Bohr-Einstein interpretation of time and quantum physic.

      Again, no one's arguing there isn't a multiverse involved here. Fitz didn't know timelines could split into "many worlds".

      Shabook wrote: Don't have more time for debating until two weeks later, but I'd like you to consider that alternate realities are a fact, and there is a whole upcoming TV series dedicated to them.

      And given that, I'm afraid this is going to be this wiki's official position regarding it. Alternate universes as opposed to "timelines".

      Absolutely fine that you don't have time for debate, you're inactive.

      I am not arguing that totally separate, dizygotic realities don't exist (although nothing in the MCU has said that yet, but it likely will). But just because they exist doesn't mean that everything needs to be about them. That's the point here, what myself and DaenerysTheMadKhal58 do not understand is why this theory is necessary as opposed to sticking to the facts of the show. But I understand you don't have time for more explanation.

      I'm not entirely sure why the wiki's official position is already decided. I thought the plan was for there to be a big wiki discussion about how to handle this stuff? Especially when Uskok, an admin, has been editing things to say "original timeline" and "new timeline" rather than "alternate timeline", and the wiki at large has been keeping to that system, so this would be a big change.

      I'd also be interested to hear from the other users on this thread.

      Anyway, whatever. Hope work is going well, Shabook.

        Loading editor
    • BEJT wrote: I am not arguing that totally separate, dizygotic realities don't exist (although nothing in the MCU has said that yet, but it likely will). But just because they exist doesn't mean that everything needs to be about them. That's the point here, what myself and DaenerysTheMadKhal58 do not understand is why this theory is necessary as opposed to sticking to the facts of the show. But I understand you don't have time for more explanation.

      To draw an analogy, both Lamarck and Darwin's theories served to explain the same "giraffe evolution" phenomenon, but only Darwin's serves to explain all evolution phenomenons. Change that to time travel phenomenons, and it is the same.

      You are forgetting that the MCU is itself a "separate reality" within the Marvel multiverse. One of the Guardians of the Galaxy animated shows considers the movie canon for their universe, which means that the events seen in Earth-199999 happened the same way in that series' universe.

      BEJT wrote: I'm not entirely sure why the wiki's official position is already decided. I thought the plan was for there to be a big wiki discussion about how to handle this stuff?

      Didn't want to say that, just that everything points that we'll have to use it.

      BEJT wrote: Especially when Uskok, an admin, has been editing things to say "original timeline" and "new timeline" rather than "alternate timeline", and the wiki at large has been keeping to that system, so this would be a big change.

      And I'm not sure why Uskok, who is on the verge of not being an admin anymore due to unannounced inactivity, decided that system by himself before waiting to have all the facts, as it should have been done.

      BEJT wrote: Anyway, whatever. Hope work is going well, Shabook.

      It's not, that's why it's work, but thanks anyway. I'm just back home for the weekend to wash clothes and stuff.

        Loading editor
    • Shabook wrote: To draw an analogy, both Lamarck and Darwin's theories served to explain the same "giraffe evolution" phenomenon, but only Darwin's serves to explain all evolution phenomenons. Change that to time travel phenomenons, and it is the same.

      You are forgetting that the MCU is itself a "separate reality" within the Marvel multiverse. One of the Guardians of the Galaxy animated shows considers the movie canon for their universe, which means that the events seen in Earth-199999 happened the same way in that series' universe.

      I think this is ultimately where we differ, and what I was saying about the comics rules. In the same way that the MCU Wiki is not beholden to the Marvel Database Wiki, I don't think the MCU is beholden to the Marvel multiverse's rules. With Markus and McFeely and the Russos discussing starting from scratch over time travel rules and not feeling beholden themselves to any sort of established law, I personally think that the MCU is allowed to establish its own rules. After all, if this universe is fundamentally different enough that its population looks like live-action humans in comparison to a universe with a population of drawings, I believe the universe is allowed to have its own time travel rules that it establishes itself, with some time loops and some offshoot timelines/universes.

      Also, I was under the impression that that Guardians of the Galaxy show was just an entirely separate universe where events very similar to those of the 2014 film have played out.

      Shabook wrote: Didn't want to say that, just that everything points that we'll have to use it.

      OK cool. Hopefully a good discussion happens and the wiki has a good, clean outcome. I definitely wouldn't say "everything" points that way, but hey.

      Shabook wrote: And I'm not sure why Uskok, who is on the verge of not being an admin anymore due to unannounced inactivity, decided that system by himself before waiting to have all the facts, as it should have been done.

      I believe he did it because, like myself and many other users, we didn't realise there was any sort of debate involved over how it worked, simply taking the show's word for it that it's a time loop that they then broke.

      Shabook wrote: It's not, that's why it's work, but thanks anyway. I'm just back home for the weekend to wash clothes and stuff.

      Sorry to hear that. Good luck with the rest.

        Loading editor
    • Shabook wrote: One of the Guardians of the Galaxy animated shows considers the movie canon for their universe, which means that the events seen in Earth-199999 happened the same way in that series' universe.

      That's the same continuity that considers both Spider-Man and Ultimate Spider-Man as canon, and so two completely different versions of Peter Parker exist, so it's not the strongest continuity ever.

      I see it more as similar events happened. By that logic, the Suicide Squad movie is canon to the DC Animated Movie Universe, as Amanda Waller talks about Enchantress in Midway City in Suicide Squad: Hell to Pay (comic sequel), but that means it's after The Death of Superman (assuming only Suicide Squad is canon and not the entire DC Extended Universe, which is impossible), Will Smith is now white and Justice League Dark is after Reign of the Supermen.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, as ProBot1227 said, the GotG show shares continuity with Ultimate Spider-ManAvengers Assemble, and Hulk and the Agents of S.M.A.S.H, so it can't stem from Earth-199999. It just borrows stuff from the MCU. Not trying to start another argument, just pointing it out.

        Loading editor
    • ProBot1227 wrote:

      Shabook wrote: One of the Guardians of the Galaxy animated shows considers the movie canon for their universe, which means that the events seen in Earth-199999 happened the same way in that series' universe.

      That's the same continuity that considers both Spider-Man and Ultimate Spider-Man as canon, and so two completely different versions of Peter Parker exist, so it's not the strongest continuity ever.

      Avengers Assemble Season 5 and Guardians of the Galaxy Season 3 are canon to Marvel's Spider-Man (both had a change in artstyle and radically redesigned all characters).

      Previous Seasons of both shows, plus the entirety of Agents of SMASH are canon to Ultimate Spider-Man. It's definitely the strangest continuity I've seen, but that's what's happened.

      Hopefully they scrap all those cartoons soon and start fresh with new Spider-Man, Avengers, Fantastic Four, X-Men and Guardians cartoons all set in the same universe.

        Loading editor
    • Today at Dublin Comic Con (It ended a few hours ago and I'm back home in Cork now) I went to a panel where Patrick Warburton was doing a Q&A where he revealed he'll be back for Season 7 of Agents of SHIELD. He probably wasn't meant to reveal that but a person asked and he answered. I met him and Pom Klementieff at that convention and both of them were nice people.

        Loading editor
    • ProBot1227 wrote:

      Shabook wrote: One of the Guardians of the Galaxy animated shows considers the movie canon for their universe, which means that the events seen in Earth-199999 happened the same way in that series' universe.

      That's the same continuity that considers both Spider-Man and Ultimate Spider-Man as canon, and so two completely different versions of Peter Parker exist, so it's not the strongest continuity ever.

      I only used it as an example of one story being canon for different universes. If you distort what I said by randomly comparing it to unrelated things, then all of this has ZERO point and I'll do what I as an admin consider best.

        Loading editor
    • Shabook wrote: I only used it as an example of one story being canon for different universes. If you distort what I said by randomly comparing it to unrelated things, then all of this has ZERO point and I'll do what I as an admin consider best.

      But it's not canon. Parts of it are canon, but Guardians of the Galaxy connects to the MCU to much. If the entire movie was canon, that contradicts the existance of other shows.

      I actually agree with you, I just don't like your reasoning.

      A (kinda?) better example is Superman Returns. The timeline is... muddled, but the first movie is canon. The second? Well, if it's Superman II, Singer said he outright ignored parts of the film with his vague history nonsense, but I guess Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut works.

      Oh, I got it! Spider-Man: The New Animated Series considers the first Spider-Man as canon. It's later contradicted because Sam Raimi kept wanting to make sequels, so even though you could make it work, it's officially in it's own universe.

      Fun (irrelevant) fact: they had the same Kingpin from Ben Affleck's Daredevil in the show, so if you wanted you could pretend that the Spider-Man trilogy is connected with the Daredevil/Elektra duology. Hell, with The Punisher's cameo (supposedly) confirmed on the Spider-Man 2 commentary, and Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse's Peter B. Parker sharing events from the trilogy (web shooters can be excused), you could even throw them in.

        Loading editor
    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Hopefully they scrap all those cartoons soon and start fresh with new Spider-Man, Avengers, Fantastic Four, X-Men and Guardians cartoons all set in the same universe.

      https://youtu.be/hNBgBj9JL0w

        Loading editor
    • ProBot1227 wrote: But it's not canon. Parts of it are canon, but Guardians of the Galaxy connects to the MCU to much. If the entire movie was canon, that contradicts the existance of other shows.

      And I couldn't care less about the canonicity of an animated series I don't even watch. If you're using it as excuse, then just forget it.

        Loading editor
    • Steve993 wrote: Today at Dublin Comic Con (It ended a few hours ago and I'm back home in Cork now) I went to a panel where Patrick Warburton was doing a Q&A where he revealed he'll be back for Season 7 of Agents of SHIELD. He probably wasn't meant to reveal that but a person asked and he answered. I met him and Pom Klementieff at that convention and both of them were nice people.

      Cool, seems like a possibility of the team going to a time when the Lighthouse was being built or when it was in operation during that Hydrogen crisis that was mentioned.
        Loading editor
    • Besides Agent Carter and Sousa, do you expect some other MCU character appearing? I would like if Marvel Studios gave them the permission to use Maria Hill and Nick Fury one more time.

        Loading editor
    • Marvelus wrote:
      Besides Agent Carter and Sousa, do you expect some other MCU character appearing? I would like if Marvel Studios gave them the permission to use Maria Hill and Nick Fury one more time.

      I wouldn't be mad if they introduced Nick Fury Sr. and established that Sam Jackson's Fury is Nick Fury Jr. just like he is in 616, but that's just me.

        Loading editor
    • Marvelus wrote: Besides Agent Carter and Sousa, do you expect some other MCU character appearing? I would like if Marvel Studios gave them the permission to use Maria Hill and Nick Fury one more time.

      I'd be surprised if the Chronicoms don't try to alter when Fury recruited Coulson in the '82 or whenever it was.
        Loading editor
    • Shabook wrote:

      ProBot1227 wrote: But it's not canon. Parts of it are canon, but Guardians of the Galaxy connects to the MCU to much. If the entire movie was canon, that contradicts the existance of other shows.

      And I couldn't care less about the canonicity of an animated series I don't even watch. If you're using it as excuse, then just forget it.

      If you don't care about it, don't use it as an excuse.

      Edit: can we move on now?

        Loading editor
    • I remembered one more point about the White Monolith, but I'll save it for when the proper discussion happens.

      In other, pretty exciting news.

      Endgame confirmed an important event in 2988 B.C. (essentially confirming that's when the Svartalfheim battle was), that Avengers was specifically May 2012, and that there was an important event in November 2009!

      Now, obviously Iron Man doesn't involve an Infinity Stone. But there's nothing else going on around then, so I think, unless it's just a random date that coincidentally lines up, it's still an Iron Man Easter egg. Especially since we know from that April 2008 thing before that they're likely throwing in Easter eggs calling back to the first film in the Infinity Saga in the ending (I know Far from Home is technically the ending).

      May 2012 can absolutely have just come from Marvel using the release date.

      2988 B.C. can quite possibly have just come from Marvel, if someone was attentive enough to realise it shouldn't be 2987 B.C.. The writers had it down as -7 on their whiteboard, but it's very possible Marvel noticed.

      But with November 2009 as well? Assuming it isn't just coincidence and is indeed an Iron Man Easter egg... there would then be a good chance it came from the wiki. I mean, it's possible that they worked it out, considering the official timeline from 2012 places it in roughly 2009. But for Marvel to specifically put November 2009, when the MCU has twice recently implied it erroneously thinks Iron Man is probably just 2008? A lot of work went into achieving that conclusion on my/our part. If Marvel didn't go through all that work and achieving the same conclusion on their part... there's honestly, I feel, especially with getting the 2988 B.C. correct as well, a chance that they got this from the wiki.

      There's a chance that my work, doing the Phase One calculations, has had an effect on Endgame😱.

        Loading editor
    • That is exciting indeed!!

        Loading editor
    • Was the 2988 date not on screen in TDW? Was that date from a prelude comic or something? That would be awesome if they looked at the wiki for information!

        Loading editor
    • Nope. They only say it was 5000 years prior to the events of the film. That date is not from a prelude. I remember it was originally placed in 2987 due to 2013-5000. But I think, we can count it as a confirmation for the First Battle of Svartalfheim on January 2988 BC

        Loading editor
    • Yes, people had placed it in 2987 B.C. because of 2013 - 5000, which is not the case, as there's no year 0 in the B.C./A.D. system.

      But there's no such thing as January 2988 B.C., months didn't exist back then. The 01 must just be simulating what month it would've been if they did exist. No reason to put it on the page.

        Loading editor
    • Hmm. Interesting. I did not know that. I learn more from you than my History Teacher :p

        Loading editor
    • Very cool. I thought the November 2009 thing, too, but also maybe that was when Thanos found the Mind Stone -- Nebula would know when that happened presumably if she were involved in the discovery.

        Loading editor
    • Whoa, that's really awesome. That means that if Marvel Studios is looking at the Wiki's timeline for dates, we should do our best to keep it as tight as possible.

      BEJT, you've mentioned before that there are some gaps in your knowledge, right? I think you mentioned SHIELD Season 1 or 2 a few months ago? I have both of those on Blu-Ray, so I can start combing through them for precise dates.

      Is there anything else we can go back and reinforce a bit?

        Loading editor
    • BEJT wrote:
      I remembered one more point about the White Monolith, but I'll save it for when the proper discussion happens.

      In other, pretty exciting news.

      Endgame confirmed an important event in 2988 B.C. (essentially confirming that's when the Svartalfheim battle was), that Avengers was specifically May 2012, and that there was an important event in November 2009!

      Now, obviously Iron Man doesn't involve an Infinity Stone. But there's nothing else going on around then, so I think, unless it's just a random date that coincidentally lines up, it's still an Iron Man Easter egg. Especially since we know from that April 2008 thing before that they're likely throwing in Easter eggs calling back to the first film in the Infinity Saga in the ending (I know Far from Home is technically the ending).

      May 2012 can absolutely have just come from Marvel using the release date.

      2988 B.C. can quite possibly have just come from Marvel, if someone was attentive enough to realise it shouldn't be 2987 B.C.. The writers had it down as -7 on their whiteboard, but it's very possible Marvel noticed.

      But with November 2009 as well? Assuming it isn't just coincidence and is indeed an Iron Man Easter egg... there would then be a good chance it came from the wiki. I mean, it's possible that they worked it out, considering the official timeline from 2012 places it in roughly 2009. But for Marvel to specifically put November 2009, when the MCU has twice recently implied it erroneously thinks Iron Man is probably just 2008? A lot of work went into achieving that conclusion on my/our part. If Marvel didn't go through all that work and achieving the same conclusion on their part... there's honestly, I feel, especially with getting the 2988 B.C. correct as well, a chance that they got this from the wiki.

      There's a chance that my work, doing the Phase One calculations, has had an effect on Endgame😱.

      Awesome! It's really nice when these kind of things line up.

      Also, having finished AoS: Season 6, I'm both curious and nervous about how they'll deal with the time travel aspect. One thing I had in mind is that they'll at least be able to return Deke and Flint back to their own time, although possibly not to the timeline they originate from.

        Loading editor
    • I think the time travel in Season 7 will be like "things happened in that way because we intervened". Season 5 was a travel to a "mirror of the possible upcoming future of Earth-199999" and by returning to the past an alternate Timeline is created (Earth-199999) which was always meant to be different. Avengers: Endgame kind of reflects what Season 5 established: the multiverse theory.

        Loading editor
    • The Wikia Editor wrote: Also, having finished AoS: Season 6, I'm both curious and nervous about how they'll deal with the time travel aspect. One thing I had in mind is that they'll at least be able to return Deke and Flint back to their own time, although possibly not to the timeline they originate from.

      That would be interesting if they jumped past 2091 if only to see what happened to the timeline once Graviton was defeated by Daisy.
        Loading editor
    • Split Point in The End (Edward Zachary Sunrose)

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: For me, the reason I thought the major split was Daisy finding the Serum before being absorbed is actually a few reasons: - The original plan before the team realized there would only be enough serum for one dose was to have someone willingly be absorbed by Talbot while holding an Odium-infused version of the Serum, in order to poison him. That already foreshadows that Talbot would be able to absorb the properties of the Serum, no matter which version was used. Including the power-up effect of the version Daisy ended up taking. - Daisy states early on (and we as viewers know) she's not powerful enough to quake the world apart. And even though Talbot can control a ship the size of a small town, that's not really world-breaker material. - As you said, the way the episode is edited with Robin's statement, it's edited in a way that implies that Daisy finding the Serum is the one big change. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely think that Fitz dying and Yo-Yo giving Coulson CPR are also major divergences as well, just because of how the episode frames all three occurences. I'm still so incredibly confused by Season 5's time loop, especially since they never gave us a dedicated episode of the key points in the original loop.

      I originally thought it was Daisy finding the serum because that's the way it's presented, but when I actually sat down to work out timings, I realised that the chronological order doesn't support that, with the team saving Mack and Polly before Daisy finds it. And then ultimately, for the reasons above, I settled on Coulson putting the serum in the gauntlet.

      I would've loved a full episode about the loop. Standalone episodes like 4,722 Hours and Rewind tend to be really interesting, so the flashbacks of The Last Day but a whole episode's worth of that sort of thing, it could've been fascinating.


      Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 7 (Steve993, Mrmichaelt, Marvelus, Edward Zachary Sunrose, The Wikia Editor)

      Steve993 wrote: Today at Dublin Comic Con (It ended a few hours ago and I'm back home in Cork now) I went to a panel where Patrick Warburton was doing a Q&A where he revealed he'll be back for Season 7 of Agents of SHIELD. He probably wasn't meant to reveal that but a person asked and he answered. I met him and Pom Klementieff at that convention and both of them were nice people.

      Oh cool! Looks like we'll be getting 1930, c. 1947, and c. 1972 then at least. Pom seems lovely in all interviews.

      Mrmichaelt wrote: Cool, seems like a possibility of the team going to a time when the Lighthouse was being built or when it was in operation during that Hydrogen crisis that was mentioned.

      Indeed, 1972 crisis.

      Marvelus wrote: Besides Agent Carter and Sousa, do you expect some other MCU character appearing? I would like if Marvel Studios gave them the permission to use Maria Hill and Nick Fury one more time.

      I would love that too, before they head out. They probably would have permission, problem being that Samuel L. Jackson is likely very expensive, so they could only use him those two times in Season 1 because the show had its biggest budget at the time and the drive behind it of "This is the MCU TV show". I'm just super happy for more Peggy at any opportunity, and glad they can use this show to give Agent Carter a bit of closure, the same way Jessica Jones did for Luke Cage.

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: I wouldn't be mad if they introduced Nick Fury Sr. and established that Sam Jackson's Fury is Nick Fury Jr. just like he is in 616, but that's just me.

      Meh, sure. It's a bit of an odd one, it kind of feels like "Woah, that's way too big a deal for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. to be allowed to make that change to a film character", but at the same time, is it? It's essentially just a reveal that he's a "Jr." and his dad has the same name. They were allowed to say Hydra went back way before Red Skull, some changes feel drastic but at the same time, it doesn't really affect the films. Unless, of course, the future films wanted to address Fury's family.

      Mrmichaelt wrote: I'd be surprised if the Chronicoms don't try to alter when Fury recruited Coulson in the '82 or whenever it was.

      It would make sense. You wouldn't have to deage Clark Gregg either, you can just get a younger actor. I know it's pushing it, at 18 you're not likely to look different-actor-level of different to your adult self (for example, 30-year-old Coulson in Captain Marvel), but if the actor looks alike enough. Things like the young Ben Donovan and Anansi casting in The Creator show that you can still absolutely get it more than close enough, that was (I rewatched it recently for write-ups) insanely good casting.

      The Wikia Editor wrote: Also, having finished AoS: Season 6, I'm both curious and nervous about how they'll deal with the time travel aspect. One thing I had in mind is that they'll at least be able to return Deke and Flint back to their own time, although possibly not to the timeline they originate from.

      I'm not nervous about it because it's not like the MCU's time travel rules are all set clearly in stone.

      I don't think Deke and Flint necessarily want to go back to their time, and it could get problematic as you could end up with two Dekes in 2091, the one from the original timeline and the one yet to be born (though to be fair, even if Fitz and Simmons still conceive the same daughter, it's unlikely that she will meet Owen Shaw in this timeline). But also, you're giving the films a problem as, theoretically, they would always be destined for that 2091 until any further timeline changes.

      Marvelus wrote: I think the time travel in Season 7 will be like "things happened in that way because we intervened". Season 5 was a travel to a "mirror of the possible upcoming future of Earth-199999" and by returning to the past an alternate Timeline is created (Earth-199999) which was always meant to be different. Avengers: Endgame kind of reflects what Season 5 established: the multiverse theory.

      Those are two different things, causal loops and different universes.

      Avengers: Endgame reflects Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. if you take the Markus and McFeely route. And yes, multiverse is involved on both counts, but the way it works is very complicated and debatable.

      But shhh, we don't need to worry about this for 9 more months.

      Mrmichaelt wrote: That would be interesting if they jumped past 2091 if only to see what happened to the timeline once Graviton was defeated by Daisy.

      It would be interesting, but that's sort of too big a can of worms, I don't think they will.


      Avengers: Endgame November 2009 (me, Marvelus, CirUmeUela, Mrmichaelt, Edward Zachary Sunrose, The Wikia Editor)

      BEJT wrote: I remembered one more point about the White Monolith, but I'll save it for when the proper discussion happens.

      In other, pretty exciting news.

      Endgame confirmed an important event in 2988 B.C. (essentially confirming that's when the Svartalfheim battle was), that Avengers was specifically May 2012, and that there was an important event in November 2009!

      Now, obviously Iron Man doesn't involve an Infinity Stone. But there's nothing else going on around then, so I think, unless it's just a random date that coincidentally lines up, it's still an Iron Man Easter egg. Especially since we know from that April 2008 thing before that they're likely throwing in Easter eggs calling back to the first film in the Infinity Saga in the ending (I know Far from Home is technically the ending).

      May 2012 can absolutely have just come from Marvel using the release date.

      2988 B.C. can quite possibly have just come from Marvel, if someone was attentive enough to realise it shouldn't be 2987 B.C.. The writers had it down as -7 on their whiteboard, but it's very possible Marvel noticed.

      But with November 2009 as well? Assuming it isn't just coincidence and is indeed an Iron Man Easter egg... there would then be a good chance it came from the wiki. I mean, it's possible that they worked it out, considering the official timeline from 2012 places it in roughly 2009. But for Marvel to specifically put November 2009, when the MCU has twice recently implied it erroneously thinks Iron Man is probably just 2008? A lot of work went into achieving that conclusion on my/our part. If Marvel didn't go through all that work and achieving the same conclusion on their part... there's honestly, I feel, especially with getting the 2988 B.C. correct as well, a chance that they got this from the wiki.

      There's a chance that my work, doing the Phase One calculations, has had an effect on Endgame😱.

      Marvelus wrote: That is exciting indeed!!

      CirUmeUela wrote: Was the 2988 date not on screen in TDW? Was that date from a prelude comic or something? That would be awesome if they looked at the wiki for information!

      Marvelus wrote: Nope. They only say it was 5000 years prior to the events of the film. That date is not from a prelude. I remember it was originally placed in 2987 due to 2013-5000. But I think, we can count it as a confirmation for the First Battle of Svartalfheim on January 2988 BC

      BEJT wrote: Yes, people had placed it in 2987 B.C. because of 2013 - 5000, which is not the case, as there's no year 0 in the B.C./A.D. system.

      But there's no such thing as January 2988 B.C., months didn't exist back then. The 01 must just be simulating what month it would've been if they did exist. No reason to put it on the page.

      Marvelus wrote: Hmm. Interesting. I did not know that. I learn more from you than my History Teacher :p

      I mean, it's kind of tricky, because obviously 2988 B.C. also wasn't called 2988 B.C. at the time, obviously the B.C. dates were only established "after Christ". So you could make an argument for "Well yes, but people go back with the calendar and assign dates where there were none". But months and days are different, because that system was established for a while before being tweaked and changed, and because of calendar changes over the year you get weird things like 11 days being skipped in the 18th century. Just, if it's not necessary to put months in dates too far back, best not to.

      Mrmichaelt wrote: Very cool. I thought the November 2009 thing, too, but also maybe that was when Thanos found the Mind Stone -- Nebula would know when that happened presumably if she were involved in the discovery.

      It could be, but why would they put a random date that audiences might surmise is when he found the Mind Stone when they could instead put a meaningful date? They could've put 11 2013 or something. They chose 11 2009, and I just feel that's likely an intentional reference to something, and if it were meant as the Mind Stone then that's not really a reference because we're not going to recognise that. I think they wanted an Iron Man nod (calling back to the first film as you reach the end of this saga, and Feige considers "I am Iron Man" the pivotal moment in the MCU timeline), and I think for them to have put November 2009, there's definitely at least a chance that they did a quick check on the wiki for when Iron Man takes place.

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Whoa, that's really awesome. That means that if Marvel Studios is looking at the Wiki's timeline for dates, we should do our best to keep it as tight as possible.

      BEJT, you've mentioned before that there are some gaps in your knowledge, right? I think you mentioned SHIELD Season 1 or 2 a few months ago? I have both of those on Blu-Ray, so I can start combing through them for precise dates.

      Is there anything else we can go back and reinforce a bit?

      Yeah, Agent Carter and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Seasons 1 and 2 I'm rusty on. Hoping to start my major timeline project properly in the coming months, so will be revisiting them then.

      As for the stuff Marvel Studios might look at, the only film/one-shot stuff I'm not super satisfied with is Guardians 2, where the exact dates are slightly too late in October based on one report saying 3 months but over time it's clearly become an anomaly, with James Gunn saying multiple times that it's just 2 months, and Age of Ultron, where a few tweaks are due to be made, on my to-do list. I also have sweeps of the timeline articles on my to-do list because I know there are lots of bits and pieces of mistakes on there that I've never noticed or had time to deal with. Things get left on there that then, unfortunately, give us things like the "official timeline" from last year that was clearly based on the July 2017 version of the MCU Wiki, with then some guesses for content released since then. But anyone is welcome to tighten some things in the meantime.

      The Wikia Editor wrote: Awesome! It's really nice when these kind of things line up.

      Indeed.


      Jessica Jones: Season 3 (additional)

      OK, I've been thinking. I tried again with Joe and Melissa but nothing. I think... I think we might still be able to use that comment from the Cloak & Dagger panel. He does say the stories you're seeing are pre-Snap unless otherwise noted, and when he then says they'll continue to be there until Avengers 4, that doesn't necessarily mean only until then, it can be taken as just an additional comment. Plus we also have Mike Colter's very loose, plus jokey, comment about Luke being Snapped and the fact that he's still alive. I don't know, maybe, maybe we have just enough there to justify it. But I don't want to rush this and start making big edits yet, if that's OK.

        Loading editor
    • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 7 (Steve993, Mrmichaelt, Marvelus, Edward Zachary Sunrose, The Wikia Editor)

      Steve993 wrote: Today at Dublin Comic Con (It ended a few hours ago and I'm back home in Cork now) I went to a panel where Patrick Warburton was doing a Q&A where he revealed he'll be back for Season 7 of Agents of SHIELD. He probably wasn't meant to reveal that but a person asked and he answered. I met him and Pom Klementieff at that convention and both of them were nice people.

      Oh cool! Looks like we'll be getting 1930, c. 1947, and c. 1972 then at least. Pom seems lovely in all interviews.

      Yeah she was. She couldn't say anything about Guardians 3 obviously but she said she's read the script already and praised it and they are basically ready to jump right into it when Gunn's Suicide Squad movie is done so he's going to get no real break it seems from finishing Suicide Squad and then straight to Guardians but it's been delayed long enough so it's understandable.

        Loading editor
    • BEJT wrote:

      Yeah, Agent Carter and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Seasons 1 and 2 I'm rusty on. Hoping to start my major timeline project properly in the coming months, so will be revisiting them then.

      I can definitely get started with both seasons of Agent Carter for you. I have them on Blu-Ray and I have them on Hulu, plus I've been doing a huge revamp of Peggy Carter's Earth-616 page over on Marvel Database, so I've already got Peggy on the brain.

        Loading editor
    • BEJT wrote: I don't think Deke and Flint necessarily want to go back to their time, and it could get problematic as you could end up with two Dekes in 2091, the one from the original timeline and the one yet to be born (though to be fair, even if Fitz and Simmons still conceive the same daughter, it's unlikely that she will meet Owen Shaw in this timeline). But also, you're giving the films a problem as, theoretically, they would always be destined for that 2091 until any further timeline changes.

      Wasn't that a clone the creation monolith made and the real Flint is still there in the future? And couldn't Deke just go back to a point after 2091 like 2092 and that wouldn't affect anything because he disappears in 2091.

      BEJT wrote:

      It could be, but why would they put a random date that audiences might surmise is when he found the Mind Stone when they could instead put a meaningful date? They could've put 11 2013 or something. They chose 11 2009, and I just feel that's likely an intentional reference to something, and if it were meant as the Mind Stone then that's not really a reference because we're not going to recognise that. I think they wanted an Iron Man nod (calling back to the first film as you reach the end of this saga, and Feige considers "I am Iron Man" the pivotal moment in the MCU timeline), and I think for them to have put November 2009, there's definitely at least a chance that they did a quick check on the wiki for when Iron Man takes place.
      Well, I'd say it has a dual purpose because the date has to be related to a stone and it's an IM1 reference. Come to think of it, we know next to nothing about the Mind Stone's history or how it was acquired, compared to the other stones. Just basically, Thanos got it before May 2012 at the latest then gave it to Loki as the Sceptre.
        Loading editor
    • Agent Carter Work (Edward Zachary Sunrose)

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: I can definitely get started with both seasons of Agent Carter for you. I have them on Blu-Ray and I have them on Hulu, plus I've been doing a huge revamp of Peggy Carter's Earth-616 page over on Marvel Database, so I've already got Peggy on the brain.

      All up to you. Not asking you to do anything, just saying that it's absolutely open for anyone to tighten things up on one of the seasons, purely if you want to.


      2091 (Mrmichaelt)

      Mrmichaelt wrote: Wasn't that a clone the creation monolith made and the real Flint is still there in the future? And couldn't Deke just go back to a point after 2091 like 2092 and that wouldn't affect anything because he disappears in 2091.

      Yeah, that's a Monolith-created Flint seemingly with memories up to the last moment Mack and Yo-Yo saw him.

      But if they went to 2091 now, they wouldn't be going to that 2091, with the timeline changed now for a better future. They'd be going to a hopefully nice 2091, which likely would not include Flint - who would've been born of parents who were brought together in the Lighthouse - and quite possibly not include Deke either.


      November 2009 in Avengers: Endgame (Mrmichaelt)

      Mrmichaelt wrote: Well, I'd say it has a dual purpose because the date has to be related to a stone and it's an IM1 reference. Come to think of it, we know next to nothing about the Mind Stone's history or how it was acquired, compared to the other stones. Just basically, Thanos got it before May 2012 at the latest then gave it to Loki as the Sceptre.

      That sounds about right. It should be to do with the Infinity Stones, so yeah, it's possible it's when Thanos acquired the Mind Stone, and rather than going with a completely random date pre-2012, they just chose that date as a nod to Iron Man. It doesn't serve as any sort of confirmation of Iron Man being 2009, but it suggests (if it's not coincidence) that at least some of Marvel consider Iron Man to be 2009 and/or check the wiki, which is still exciting.

      I saw a theory that maybe November 2009 was one of the considered dates to visit to get an arc reactor because they knew they were going to fry 2012 Tony's one. Maybe before they realised Thor could jolt it instead. But not sure about that.

      There's conflicting information about Thanos' history with the Mind Stone. One book suggested that Thanos didn't know what he had was an Infinity Stone when he gave it to Loki, but other comments suggest (and this is the way I always saw it) that he lent it to Loki to basically help him get a second. Lend him one, get back that one and another one. I mean, he's clearly after the Infinity Stones by 2012, it would be kind of ridiculous for him not to notice that the glowing gem which can control minds that he already had was not one of them.

        Loading editor
    • BEJT wrote: But if they went to 2091 now, they wouldn't be going to that 2091, with the timeline changed now for a better future. They'd be going to a hopefully nice 2091, which likely would not include Flint - who would've been born of parents who were brought together in the Lighthouse - and quite possibly not include Deke either.

      [ponders] That is true. ;)

      BEJT wrote: There's conflicting information about Thanos' history with the Mind Stone. One book suggested that Thanos didn't know what he had was an Infinity Stone when he gave it to Loki, but other comments suggest (and this is the way I always saw it) that he lent it to Loki to basically help him get a second. Lend him one, get back that one and another one. I mean, he's clearly after the Infinity Stones by 2012, it would be kind of ridiculous for him not to notice that the glowing gem which can control minds that he already had was not one of them.

      Yeah, I think it's the latter as well. As aside, it becomes clear to him over the few years he has to look for them personally (via the Age of Ultron end teaser) after both Loki and Ronan fail him and leaving the stone in the hands of a subordinate is not conducive to his plan.
        Loading editor
    • So, other Spider-Man news (disaster) aside...

      There's the annoying rerelease of Far from Home next week, doing exactly what I was glad Endgame didn't, actually making essentially an extended cut of the film, which I find bothersome in terms of official runtime and canon and things.

      That said, the canon thing isn't too much of a problem, because it sounds like it's essentially just Peter's To-Do List inserted into the film, and Peter's To-Do List was likely going to be a canon piece anyway. If it is, I'm essentially just going to consider this re-release "Spider-Man: Far from Home + Peter's To-Do List inserted 15 minutes in" rather than an extended cut of Far from Home, thus still giving a normal official Far from Home run time and the canon pieces are intact, just separate. It also essentially reinforces that Peter's To-Do List should be canon.

      I hope it's just that inserted in, for the reasons above but also because if editing starts mucking around with orders of established events, it's problematic.

      Anyway, my point is, if it is Peter's To-Do List inserted into the film, it will likely include the passport scene as part of the main film, canonising that scene. So, if anyone is planning on going, please let us know if it's in there and if the passport says what it does in the trailer.

      If no one is seeing it, though, we can probably find out what the additional footage is online and check somewhere that it's the same dates.

        Loading editor
    • So what happens now with Sony and Marvel? Really, it seems a bit weak to keep the rights to Spider-Man when 75% of all Marvel characters belongs under the helm of Marvel Studios

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, guaranteed there will be articles talking about the "new" footage in the extended cut. I agree it's likely the Peter's To-Do List and nothing really to worry about.

      Meh. Negotiations and back channel talk will continue. Money talks and some compromise will be made. I'm leery of this news because it just so happens to be published days before the weekend of D23. It'll be fine. James Gunn got rehired. A new deal can be struck with Sony. Besides, MCU Spider-Man has to lay low for awhile anyway.

        Loading editor
    • Mrmichaelt wrote:
      Yeah, guaranteed there will be articles talking about the "new" footage in the extended cut. I agree it's likely the Peter's To-Do List and nothing really to worry about.

      Meh. Negotiations and back channel talk will continue. Money talks and some compromise will be made. I'm leery of this news because it just so happens to be published days before the weekend of D23. It'll be fine. James Gunn got rehired. A new deal can be struck with Sony. Besides, MCU Spider-Man has to lay low for awhile anyway.

      when is D23? I really have on idea

        Loading editor
    • D23 is tomorrow 23rd August

        Loading editor
    • Pertaining to Marvel for D23 panels

      Friday
      -3 pm Agents of SHIELD
      -3:30 pm Disney+

      Saturday
      -10 am Walt Disney Studios (Marvel Studios included)

        Loading editor
    • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. will have D23 pannel? Wow. I am looking forward to that!!

        Loading editor
    • Marvelus wrote: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. will have D23 pannel? Wow. I am looking forward to that!!

      Yup, I was surprised, too. Saw the full list of panels today. But semi-face palm for scheduling those two panels back to back... Hopefully no overlap in time so people can go to both.
        Loading editor
    • BEJT, sorry if you already posted this. I looked all over and couldn't find that you posted these exact dates yet. Do you have dates set yet for these events in Endgame? I found everything else already on the timeline pages but not these:

      Hawkeye's time travel test run

      Steve staying in the past with Peggy (dancing in their house)

        Loading editor
    • CirUmeUela wrote: BEJT, sorry if you already posted this. I looked all over and couldn't find that you posted these exact dates yet. Do you have dates set yet for these events in Endgame? I found everything else already on the timeline pages but not these:

      Steve staying in the past with Peggy (dancing in their house)

      Markus and McFeely said the dancing in the house was about 1948 (or sometime after Agent Carter season 2). But I think BEJT is waiting for other sources to verify the year.
        Loading editor
    • Agents of SHIELD Season 7 teaser includes a New York 1931 timestamp.

        Loading editor
    • Yup, noticed that.

      Agh, I was excited to finally post a bit of work I've spent a long time on that I'd just finished, only to find I lost 2/3 of it. It wasn't even a "remember to save your work!" thing, the problem was that I saved it. I meant to replace a little part on a Notepad file and save, but must have accidentally selected the whole document and replaced it, saved, and closed, without realising. So I've overwritten all the work, and it's not possible to get it back.

      Sorry guys, I've been knocked back some days in my work.

        Loading editor
    • Oh man, that sucks, sorry about that BEJT!

      Just thought I'd mention that Empire released another podcast about Endgame and they asked Feige (again) about if Steve was from an alternate timeline at the end or if he was always in the prime timeline. He quoted Maz Kanata: "A good question, for another time."

        Loading editor
    • Spider-Man: Far from Home Extended Release (Mrmichaelt)

      Mrmichaelt wrote: Yeah, guaranteed there will be articles talking about the "new" footage in the extended cut. I agree it's likely the Peter's To-Do List and nothing really to worry about.

      The main thing is that, assuming that is the case, I'd just like to find out whether (and it most likely is the case, but just for sure) it still has the JUL 19 date or if any dates on the passport are changed in some way.


      Endgame Non-Heist Time Jumps (CirUmeUela, Mrmichaelt)

      CirUmeUela wrote: BEJT, sorry if you already posted this. I looked all over and couldn't find that you posted these exact dates yet. Do you have dates set yet for these events in Endgame? I found everything else already on the timeline pages but not these:

      Hawkeye's time travel test run

      Steve staying in the past with Peggy (dancing in their house)

      Mrmichaelt wrote: Markus and McFeely said the dancing in the house was about 1948 (or sometime after Agent Carter season 2). But I think BEJT is waiting for other sources to verify the year.

      Yeah, they've said a few times that it's 1948, which I am inclined to agree with, but that's because I agree with Markus and McFeely. Obviously there's a debate over the whole Steve thing, and unfortunately there isn't a hard shared date on both sides. However, 1948 doesn't contradict the Russos, with the Russos merely saying between 1945 and 1953. Just 1948 wasn't a date on its own, it had an intention behind it: "To be after Agent Carter: Season 2, because it has to be because it's a time loop." Still, it's possible that, regardless of debate over what exactly happened with Steve, 1948 can be used on the timeline pages without technically taking a side.

      I just haven't got around to writing up the past events of Avengers: Endgame yet.

      As or the Hawkeye jump, I think it's shortly before Avengers: Infinity War, since Lila looks the same as she does at the time of the Snap, and she's already aged more than she should really in the 3 years since Avengers: Age of Ultron (since they changed actress), so it really shouldn't be too much earlier. The exact date though would be fairly arbitrary. A day before? A week? A month? Anyone have any thoughts?


      Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 7 (Mrmichaelt, me)

      Mrmichaelt wrote: Agents of SHIELD Season 7 teaser includes a New York 1931 timestamp.

      BEJT wrote: Yup, noticed that.

      Sorry for not responding properly there, I was eager just to get in a notice about losing my work.

      Yes, watching it I went "Oh, OK. Definitely seemed like November 1930."

      For now, I'm still going to put their arrival on the timeline as November 1930, as for all we know, this scene takes place a couple of months after their arrival. But if it is very shortly after their arrival, then sure. Far from the end of the world if it's early 1931.


      Lost Work (me, CirUmeUela)

      Agh, I was excited to finally post a bit of work I've spent a long time on that I'd just finished, only to find I lost 2/3 of it. It wasn't even a "remember to save your work!" thing, the problem was that I saved it. I meant to replace a little part on a Notepad file and save, but must have accidentally selected the whole document and replaced it, saved, and closed, without realising. So I've overwritten all the work, and it's not possible to get it back.

      Sorry guys, I've been knocked back some days in my work.

      CirUmeUela wrote: Oh man, that sucks, sorry about that BEJT!

      Thanks man. I've managed to do a good chunk of it again, much faster than before. Still very frustrating. I just wanted to let you guys know at that moment in time because I sort of wanted to apologise, even though I wasn't actually letting anyone down because I hadn't said I was going to post anything. Still, I was just really disappointed because I was about to be ready to post, and I was getting very stressed and frustrated and just wanted to say something to feel a bit better, so you guys know I am still working hard.

      Anyway, it's fine. Life goes on.


      Kevin Feige Q&A (CirUmeUela)

      CirUmeUela wrote: Just thought I'd mention that Empire released another podcast about Endgame and they asked Feige (again) about if Steve was from an alternate timeline at the end or if he was always in the prime timeline. He quoted Maz Kanata: "A good question, for another time."

      Thanks. Yeah, I mentioned it at the time of the Q&A - I haven't listened to the now-uploaded interview yet, but when the Q&A happened, Empire released an article that included that quote. It's the same as on his Reddit AMA, not answering the question for now.

        Loading editor
    • This is one of the things I lost work on, and have worked hard in the last 24 hours to redo the bits I lost. But here we are, a side project I said at one point I would do and, while often tricky to figure out and a bit difficult/tedious to write explanations for, I enjoyed doing. A side-by-side for aligning the Time Heist events with the original timeline events (also allowing you to know where things like the Ancient One participating in the battle, Jane getting her shawl and Frigga walking the corridor, or some of Quill's dance - things that we only saw in Avengers: Endgame but know must have played out the same way in the original timeline because there's no reason those things would have be affected by the Time Heist at each respective point - also would take place in the main timeline).

      2012

      Marvel's The Avengers

      Avengers: Endgame

      • 1:51:45-1:52:02) Hulk punches a Leviathan and Tony blows it up, it falls down (p1of2).
      • 1:52:02-1:52:05) Hulk punches a Leviathan and Tony blows it up, it falls down (p2of2).
      • 1:07:11-1:07:14) New York shot (p1of2).
        • This doesn't match a shot from Marvel's The Avengers. It can just be assumed to be taking place right before the next shot, so simultaneous to the falling Leviathan and beginning of the Chitauri scream from Marvel's The Avengers.
      • 1:52:05-1:52:06) The Chitauri scream (p1of2).
      • 1:07:14-1:07:15) New York shot (p2of2).
      • 1:52:06-1:52:10) The Chitauri scream (p2of2).
      • 1:07:15-1:07:19) The Chitauri scream.
      • 1:52:10-1:52:21) The revolving shot of the Avengers.
      • 1:07:19-1:07:30) The revolving shot of the Avengers.
      • 1:52:21-1:52:33) More Leviathans rain down. Hulk is still facing the opposite direction from Black Widow (p1of2).
      • 1:52:33-1:52:35) More Leviathans rain down. Hulk is still facing the opposite direction from Black Widow (p2of2).
      • 1:07:30-1:07:32) Aerial shot, showing Hulk still facing in the opposite direction from Black Widow.
        • From 1:07:30 to 1:07:43, there is no clear point where there could be a jump in time in Avengers: Endgame, with events presented as continuous, other than maybe 1 second inserted at 1:07:38 to account for Steve facing one way and then the other. However, 1:07:43 on has Hulk passing by their alley. But from the revolving shot of the Avengers to the end of the shots of Hulk starting to smash Chitauri in Marvel's The Avengers is 1:52:21-1:53:29, 68 seconds, plus at least a further 3 seconds for Hulk to get back down to the ground and be by the alley. So 71 seconds of real time have to take place between 1:07:30 and 1:07:43 of Avengers: Endgame. One cut where there can easily be time inserted is at 1:07:30. From 1:07:30 to 1:07:32, the aerial shot shows the team still in their circle, with Hulk facing away from Black Widow. This can be several seconds after the end of the revolving shot and still work. Pushing it as late as possible, to reduce the time that needs to be inserted in unnatural places, the part of this shot where Hulk is visible can finish as late as simultaneously to 1:52:35 in Marvel's The Avengers, just before Hulk turns around. This then means 1:07:32-1:07:43, 11 seconds, now needs to stretch to fill 1:52:38-1:53:29 plus 3 seconds, 54 seconds - so, 43 seconds need to be slotted in, less than before.
      • 1:52:35-1:52:41) Hulk turns around. Cap starts giving instructions.
      • 1:07:32-1:07:38) Over in a nearby alley, the 2023 Avengers arrive. Cap says they each have their assignments and turns his head to the left.
        • This continues from 1:07:30-1:07:32 with no possible jump in time inserted at any point.
      • 1:52:41-1:53:11) Cap continues his instructions.
        • There are only two moments in Avengers: Endgame before 2012 Hulk arrives where you could conceivably just about manage to insert some time: 1:07:38 and 1:07:41 (it helps that there's what's likely actually a continuity error at 1:07:38, where one moment Steve turns his head to the left, then it cuts and he's looking to his right, turning his head to the left again - it means there should indeed be time inserted there). If the established 43 extra seconds were about roughly split, then that would mean about 22 seconds inserted at 1:07:38. However, this would make 1:07:38-1:07:43 simultaneous to 1:53:03-1:53:08 of Marvel's The Avengers, but Hulk does not start smashing the Chitauri until 1:53:14 of Marvel's The Avengers and is making smashing noises nearby by 1:07:41 of Avengers: Endgame, so Hulk would be making noise too early. Therefore, a further 8 seconds need to be inserted here for 1:53:14 of Marvel's The Avengers to align with 1:07:41 of Avengers: Endgame. There could be further seconds inserted here, but pushing it to just enough to work, just adding 8 further seconds, still keeps the balance of the two insertion points as close to even as possible, 30 : 13.
      • 1:53:11-1:53:14) Hulk leaps.
      • 1:07:38-1:07:41) Cap is looking to his right again. He turns his head left again and continues.
      • 1:53:14-1:53:16) Hulk starts smashing Chitauri (p1of2).
      • 1:07:41-1:07:43) Cap is interrupted by a sound. The group turn, hearing smashing nearby.
      • 1:53:16-1:53:26) Hulk starts smashing Chitauri (p2of2).
        • The (first 10 seconds of the) 13-second insertion at 1:07:43 of Avengers: Endgame, as established.
      • 1:53:26-1:53:29) Thor flies up to the Chrysler Building.
        • The (final 3 seconds of the) 13-second insertion at 1:07:43 of Avengers: Endgame, as established.
      • 1:53:29-1:53:59) Thor conducts electricity through the Chrysler Building to destroy the Leviathans.
      • 1:07:43-1:08:13) 2012 Hulk goes past, smashing a car. 2023 Hulk heads off to Bleecker Street.
        • Time has been inserted between shots in Avengers: Endgame to allow this to fall at least (and going with the minimum, due to the difficulty of inserting the gaps already) 3 seconds after we last see Hulk in Marvel's The Avengers before this point, smashing Chitauri.
      • 1:53:59-1:54:02) Fury surveys the monitors.
        • For sake of ease, assuming this scene takes place immediately after the last, without a jump in time, thus meaning the last 3 seconds of Hulk leaving for Bleecker Street are simultaneous to this.
      • 1:08:13-1:08:16) 2023 Hulk throws a motorbike.
      • 1:54:02-2:02:30) Fury finishes surveying the monitors. Hill tells him there's a call from the security council. Tony leads Chitauri into crashes. Hulk leaps onto a Leviathan. Cap boosts Black Widow onto a Chitauri vehicle. The tracking shot of the Avengers fighting. Hulk punches Thor. Selvig wakes. Cap saves people. The Security Council says they want to fire on New York. Hawkeye fires Loki onto Stark Tower. Hulk tosses Loki around. Selvig tells Natasha about needing the sceptre. Tony Jonah-s a Leviathan. Clint leaps off his building and fires a grappling hook, swinging through a window.
      • 2:02:30-2:02:38) Clint lies on the ground, in pain. Hulk punches oncoming Chitauri.
        • Assuming no jump in time between the Clint scene and Hulk scene, for the sake of ease.
      • 1:08:16-1:08:24) The Ancient One destroys Chitauri.
        • 1:08:24 in Avengers: Endgame is the point when we last see a Chitauri around the Ancient One, and when Hulk arrives at the Sanctum. At the earliest, there needs to have been enough time since 1:54:02 of Marvel's The Avengers, simultaneous to when we last see Hulk leaving for Bleecker Street, for Hulk to get to Bleecker Street. As the crow flies (since Hulk leaps over building tops), it is pretty much exactly 2.0 miles. I will say that, at the fastest, Hulk's bounding is slightly faster than Usain Bolt's top speed of 27.8mph. Taking into account that he has to get up onto the buildings and it's never going to be exactly perfectly straight, we can use 27.8mph as the fastest Hulk could travel. This would mean at least 4 minutes and 19 seconds to get to Bleecker Street, plus about 5 seconds at least for him to start bounding up to the buildings from where we left off, so absolute minimum 4:24 since we last saw him, meaning Avengers: Endgame 1:08:24 is at least simultaneous to Marvel's The Avengers 1:58:28. At the latest, 1:08:24 is just before the Chitauri drop down dead, so 2:06:48. So, it's somewhere between 1:58:28 and 2:06:48, so can be taken to line up with roughly 2:02:38 of Marvel's The Avengers. There are possible jumps in time during Marvel's The Avengers at various points between 1:58:28 and 2:06:48, but there's an even chance at any point in that time, so the best estimate is still just 2:02:38. Assuming no jumps in time in Marvel's The Avengers just either side of this point, for the sake of ease, then 1:08:16-1:09:17 of Avengers: Endgame is simultaneous to approximately 2:02:30-2:03:31 of Marvel's The Avengers.
      • 2:02:38-2:03:31) Hulk is blasted at from all sides. Fury fires down a jet taking off, but another one flies with the nuke.
        • Assuming no jump in time between the Hulk scene and Fury scene, for the sake of ease.
      • 1:08:24-1:09:17) Hulk arrives and asks for the Time Stone, but the Ancient One refuses, pushing his astral form out of his body.
      • 2:02:38-2:06:48) It's too far gone for Fury to fire. Cap and Thor fight together. Natasha uses the sceptre on the protective field. Tony tries to contact Pepper but she doesn't pick up. He flies the nuke through the wormhole and it destroys the mother ship.
      • 2:06:48-2:09:08) The Chitauri collapse. Tony falls to Earth and Hulk catches him, then waking him.
      • 1:16:02-1:16:05) 2023 Tony surveys Stark Tower, seeing that things are about wrapped up (p1of2).
        • Approximately 10 seconds has to pass between shots at 1:16:11 of Avengers: Endgame for Tony to fly over to Stark Tower. Therefore, with 1:16:11-1:16:17 of Avengers: Endgame aligning with 2:09:24-2:09:30 of Marvel's The Avengers, the 10-second gap aligns with 2:09:14-2:09:24 of Marvel's The Avengers. This then means that 2:09:08-2:09:14 of Marvel's The Avengers aligns with 1:16:05-1:16:11 of Avengers: Endgame, giving 3 extra seconds, 1:16:02-1:16:05, of Avengers: Endgame set before the Loki scene in Marvel's The Avengers begins.
      • 2:09:08-2:09:14) Loki crawls up the steps.
      • 1:16:05-1:16:11) 2023 Tony surveys Stark Tower, seeing that things are about wrapped up (p2of2).
      • 2:09:14-2:09:24) Loki finishes crawling and looks around.
        • Simultaneous to the 10-second insertion at 1:16:11 of Avengers: Endgame, as established.
      • 2:09:24-2:09:30) The Avengers are waiting, standing over him.
      • 1:16:11-1:16:17) 2023 Tony sneaks into the Tower.
      • 2:09:30-2:09:36) "If it's all the same to you... I'll have that drink now."
      • 1:16:17-1:16:23) "If it's all the same to you... I'll have that drink now."
      • 2:09:36-2:09:40) Hulk grunts.
        • Hulk grunts after Loki speaks both here and in Avengers: Endgame. However, in Avengers: Endgame, the grunt is immediately followed (without a cut) by Tony starting to talk, but in Marvel's The Avengers, it is not. Therefore, they must be separate grunts. There is an opportunity at Avengers: Endgame 1:16:23 to insert a 4-second gap in which the remainder of the Marvel's The Avengers scene occurs, before then the Avengers: Endgame scene resumes, with Hulk grunting again and then Tony immediately speaking.
      • 1:16:23-1:26:25) Packing up. STRIKE. Ant-Man gets into the case. 2012 Hulk is sent down the stairs. The elevator. Ant-Man gives 2012 Tony a heart attack. Things go wrong and Loki gets away. Cap vs. Cap. The Ancient One explains about timelines. Bruce tells her about Strange's decision and she hands over the Time Stone.
        • The remaining scenes in 2012 all take place before the Avengers go to get shawarma.
      • 1:37:01-1:38:55) Tony explains what went wrong and has the idea to go to 1970. They leave.
      • 2:22:15-2:22:47) Shawarma.
      • 2:09:40-2:10:25) The news reports on the Avengers.


      2013

      Thor: The Dark World

      Avengers: Endgame

      • 0:34:32-0:36:29) The prisoners are marched through Asgard to the cells. In Loki's cell, Frigga is visiting him through an illusion. She is sad he hasn't read the books she gave him.
      • 1:09:17-1:09:21) Asgard shot.
        • After Jane has arrived on Asgard, Malekith appoints Algrim to be Kurse. Prisoners are then escorted to Asgard's cells as Frigga visits Loki in a blue dress with a silver cloak and silver breastplate over her left side, mentioning that she's sad he hasn't read the books she sent him. Jane is then shown walking with Thor in a brown gown and blue/grey shawl, and she and Thor kiss by the lake. Frigga arrives, now in a blue/grey dress, blue shawl, and gold breastplate. It cuts to Loki in his cell, tossing a cup above him. Algrim then becomes Kurse, and Loki is shown still tossing his cup before getting up to see what's going on. A prison break starts. Back with Jane, Thor, and Frigga, they find out about the commotion in the prisons and Thor heads off to help. He fights in the prisons and Jane and Frigga see Odin, then going to Frigga's chambers. The Dark Elves arrive, beginning their attack, which leads to Frigga's death. The shot of Loki tossing the cup above him appears in both films, just with Thor and Rocket sneaking past in the new timeline (the first moment after they arrive), so the most obvious thing would be to align the two films' events by that. However, immediately after is when Algrim becomes Kurse and kicks off the attack on Asgard, leading to Frigga's death. Things are calm in Asgard in Avengers: Endgame, so it is definitely before the beginning of the riots that lead to the attack. It is possible to just assume that a certain amount of time occurs between Loki tossing his cup and the next shot, Algrim becoming Kurse, and despite the fact that Loki is then shown still tossing his cup, it's an hour or so later and he's just been tossing it for a long time or gone back to tossing it. Then the Avengers: Endgame events occur in that space. But no, either side of that moment, Thor, Jane, and Frigga are out by the lake. The Loki moment is sandwiched between either half of that scene by the lake, so a) no extra time should be passing between, especially not an hour or so, and b) Frigga and Jane are by the lake both before and after the Loki moment, yet Jane is in her chambers and Frigga is wandering the corridor in the Avengers: Endgame events, so it cannot be between. But maybe, maybe you can then argue that Frigga and Jane are by the lake with Thor, then Loki is tossing his cup, then an hour or so passes where Jane goes back to her chambers and Frigga is walking the corridors of Asgard, then Algrim becomes Kurse as Loki is still tossing his cup and Frigga and Jane happen to go back to the lakeside and reunite with Thor. It's a massive stretch. But still, it doesn't work. Not only is it clearly just a continuation of the same scene either side of another scene, but in the Avengers: Endgame 2013 events, Jane is given the blue/grey shawl to wear over her brown gown. She already has it by the time she's by the lake in Thor: The Dark World, before the shot of Loki. If the previous points hadn't already seemed like a stretch, this is the final straw, there's no way the Avengers: Endgame 2013 events occur after the lakeside scene in Thor: The Dark World. It has to be before (all of it does, not just the Jane scene, as Frigga is then also in the lakeside scene). It just has to be assumed that Loki is tossing the cup in an identical, right down to his muscle positions, way hours apart. This also somewhat confirms it was not intended to be the exact same moment, as it was pulled from dailies rather than taken from Thor: The Dark World. So, now we know that the 2013 events have to fall somewhere between Jane's arrival and the lakeside scene. In the scene where Frigga visits Loki in his cell, she is in a different outfit to the one she is in by the lakeside scene and Avengers: Endgame events. This would suggest that the 2013 events take place after she has changed into the outfit she wears in the lakeside scene and up to her death, so after the scene where Frigga visits Loki. That scene is immediately before the lakeside scene, which the 2013 events are before, so that would establish that all the Avengers: Endgame 2013 events slide in comfortably at 0:36:29. Now, yes, that Frigga is an illusion, not in the flesh, so it's possible that is not what she's wearing in the flesh. But there's no particular reason to want for the scene to fall any earlier, before that scene, so as to require that assumption - there's one possible reason, but I will address why it does not matter - and this deleted scene, while not official canon, establishes that it is the intent that Frigga is indeed wearing the same clothes in the flesh, and it's all but official canon. Now, the one possible reason to want the Avengers: Endgame 2013 events to be before the scene where Frigga visits Loki is that in the Avengers: Endgame events, she mentions wanting to get some astronomy books for Loki, and in the Thor: The Dark World scene, she is sad that he has not read some books he sent her. However, we know for certain (it's mentioned) that the Avengers: Endgame events are the day of Frigga's death, so at most it would merely be hours before Frigga visits Loki. Her tone in Thor: The Dark World implies he's had the books for more than long enough to read them, but hasn't touched them - long enough to know that he is pointedly refusing to read them, not "I had these dropped off hours ago and you haven't read them yet?" Plus, her tone in Avengers: Endgame is more that of someone who has just visited Loki - she's saying to get a soup sent to him, which would make sense after visiting him and seeing he's not eaten enough, and her phrasing, "And ask our librarians to pull some volumes from the astronomy shelf," implies more "Let's try the astronomy shelf this time". So it works at least equally well after the visiting Loki scene as before. In conjunction with the outfit change and the deleted scene, it definitely should be after the visiting Loki scene. After that, before the lakeside scene, so all slotting in at 0:36:29. This also works well because another deleted scene shows another take of the same deleted moments they pulled from to use in Avengers: Endgame with Rocket trying to get the Aether out of Jane, and this deleted scene naturally slots in after the scene of Frigga visiting Loki, after the deleted scene following that, and before the lakeside scene - the same place as the 2013 events - since it is before the lakeside scene but Thor has changed since his deleted scene with Frigga to his outfit the day of the lakeside scene. So, while the Loki shot cannot align side-by-side, the 2013 events will still align side-by-side with the deleted scene from Thor: The Dark World of the same moment. I'm including the two deleted scenes in my breakdown because they factor in nicely.
      • 1:09:21-1:09:28) Loki tosses a cup above him.
      • 1:09:28-1:09:54) Thor sees Jane. He wants to leave for the wine cellar.
      • 1:09:54-1:11:55) As Thor goes to leave, he has to hide as Frigga walks past, saying her to her servants, "If you could send Loki some soup. And ask our librarians to pull some volumes from the astronomy shelf." Thor has a panic attack. Rocket goes ahead, but finds Thor has walked off.
      • 1:28:25-1:29:46) Frigga finds Thor and guesses he's from the future. They hug.
      • Jane Wakes Up on Asgard Deleted Scene: 0:04-0:05) Jane wakes, her head in her hand (p1of2).
        • At least about 15 minutes take place between 1:29:46 and 1:30:07 of Avengers: Endgame, for Thor to go back to Frigga's chambers and tell his story in that time. So, splitting that about evenly, then about 7ish (or more) minutes would occur at 1:29:46 and another about 7ish (or more) minutes would occur at 1:30:07. Therefore, this 1 extra second before 1:29:46 of Avengers: Endgame would very likely not overlap with 1:29:45-1:29:46 of Avengers: Endgame, still minutes after 1:28:25-1:29:46.
      • 1:29:46-1:29:49) Jane wakes, her head in her hand.
      • 1:29:49-1:29:51) Jane lifts her head off her hand.
      • 1:29:51-1:29:55) Jane sits up about halfway.
      • 1:29:55-1:29:57) Jane finishes sitting up.
      • 1:29:57-1:29:59) Jane pulls off the last of the covers and puts her feet down.
      • 1:29:59-1:30:07) Jane stands up.
      • 1:30:00-1:30:07) Jane turns her head. She picks up her things to leave. Rocket follows her with a syringe.
      • 1:30:07-1:32:20) Thor talks to his mother. Rocket arrives, Thor summons Mjolnir, and they leave.
        • At least a good few minutes take place during the cut at 0:40 in the Jane Wakes Up on Asgard deleted scene, for Jane to get down to the streets and Thor to wander and find her. I think it's likely that less time passes between Jane waking up and this scene than Jane waking up and the scene from Jane Wakes Up on Asgard of her in the streets, so placing this first, without overlap.
      • 0:36:29-0:37:50) Jane and Thor talk at the lakeside and end up kissing. Frigga arrives, meeting Jane.
      • 0:37:50-0:37:54) Loki tosses a cup above him.


      2014

      Guardians of the Galaxy

      Avengers: Endgame

      • 1:11:55-1:16:03) Arriving in 2014. Meanwhile, Nebula and Gamora train. Nebula's files are activated.
      • 1:26:24-1:28:24) Thanos has Nebula analysed.
      • 0:04:16-0:06:19) Quill arrives on Morag.
      • 0:06:19-0:06:28 video) The cassette plays.
      • 0:06:19-0:06:28 audio) Ta-ta ta-ta ta. Bam, bam-bam, bam, bam-bam. Bam bam-bam bam-bam bam-bam. Twang, twang-twang twang, twang-twang.
        • In both films, the video is not always in real time with the audio. This is shown by the fact that at several points, time has passed between cuts, where Quill has moved to another point or thrown an Orloni or something of the sort. As well as this, the song does not entirely play in real time, as it jumps a verse and chorus at one point, and a line at another point. Therefore, for all points involving the song, I will separately write the video and audio for which point they should be at. As well as this, when there is a part of the song missing, I will include the song for the sake of completeness and ease regarding real time.
      • 1:32:08-1:32:17 audio) Ta-ta ta-ta ta. Bam, bam-bam, bam, bam-bam. Bam bam-bam bam-bam bam-bam. Twang, twang-twang twang, twang-twang.
      • 0:06:28-0:06:30 video) Quill steps up among the pillars.
      • 0:06:28-0:06:30 audio) Twang twang-twang, twang-twang twang-twang.
        • 0:06:19-0:06:28 video is clearly simultaneous with 0:06:19-0:06:28 audio. Then, at the very least, 15 seconds passes before 0:06:43, when Quill finishes kicking the Orloni, simultaneous to 1:32:28 of Avengers: Endgame (even if there were no jumps in time up to this point in Guardians of the Galaxy, there would still be room for the Avengers: Endgame scenes up to that point to take place before this point, so that's fine). Then, from this point, 6 seconds of content occurs before, in Avengers: Endgame, Quill then has to be in sync with the audio from 1:32:34-1:32:44, singing "Come on and find it", but more than 6 seconds has to actually pass, as there are three cuts in that time which need to last at least a second each for Quill to have got into each position. So, at least 9 seconds should pass since the kicking the Orloni before "Come on and find it", meaning at least 24 seconds have to pass between 06:02:28 of Guardians of the Galaxy and 1:32:34 of Avengers: Endgame. As well as this, 24 seconds of the song pass between these points, so all 24 of these seconds of content have to pass with no further additional seconds inserted between shots. It means that 0:06:28-0:06:46 of Guardians of the Galaxy has to play in real time, with the equivalent scenes from 1:32:21 to 1:32:28 of Avengers: Endgame playing as is fitting, aligning side-by-side, then 1:32:28-1:32:30 of Avengers: Endgame, 1 second of real time is then inserted, then 1:32:30-1:32:32, then 1 second inserted, then 1:32:32-1:32:34, 1 second, 1:32:34-1:32:44, lining up with "Come on and find it".
      • 1:32:19-1:32:21 video) Quill steps up among the pillars.
      • 0:06:30-0:06:34 video) Quill dances among the pillars.
      • 0:06:30-0:06:34 audio) "Hai-ail, hai-ail, What's the matter with..."
      • 0:06:34-0:06:35 video) Quill kicks the water.
      • 0:06:34-0:06:35 audio) "...ya? Hai-ail..."
        • 0:06:28-0:06:46 of Guardians of the Galaxy plays in real time, as explained.
      • 1:32:21-1:32:22 video) Quill kicks the water.
      • 0:06:35-0:06:38 video) Quill grooves to the music.
      • 0:06:35-0:06:38 audio) "... hai-ai-ail."
        • 0:06:28-0:06:46 of Guardians of the Galaxy plays in real time, as explained.
      • 1:32:22-1:32:25 video) Quill grooves to the music.
      • 0:06:38-0:06:43 video) Quill kicks the Orloni (p1of2).
      • 0:06:38-0:06:43 audio) "Hai-ail, hai-ail. What's the matter with..."
        • 0:06:28-0:06:46 of Guardians of the Galaxy plays in real time, as explained.
      • 1:32:17-1:32:22 audio) "Hai-ail, hai-ail. What's the matter with..."
      • 0:06:43-0:06:46 video) Quick kicks the Orloni (p2of2).
      • 0:06:43-0:06:46 audio) "... ya mind and ya sign, and a..."
        • 0:06:28-0:06:46 of Guardians of the Galaxy plays in real time, as explained.
      • 1:32:25-1:32:28 video) Quill kicks the Orloni.
      • 1:32:22-1:32:25 audio) "... ya mind and ya sign, and a..."
      • 0:06:46-0:06:48 audio) "... ohh oh-ohh."
        • From 0:06:46 to 0:06:50 of Guardians of the Galaxy, we see Quill singing along to the "Hai-ail" of the song. It is implied to be simultaneous to the audio, which also reaches that point at the same moment. However, there is some flexibility, since there are other moments where the song has the same "Hai-ail". As established, 1:32:28-1:32:44 of Avengers: Endgame has to play out almost in real time immediately after 0:06:46 of Guardians of the Galaxy, with just three 1-second insertions between cuts, and this is not compatible with 0:06:46-0:06:50 of Guardians of the Galaxy. So, that moment in Guardians of the Galaxy, and thus all the subsequent moments in Guardians of the Galaxy, have to put off until later in the song, when another "Hai-ail" occurs.
      • 1:32:28-1:32:30 video) Quill continues grooving to the music.
      • 1:32:25-1:32:27 audio) "... ohh oh-ohh."
        • Immediately after 0:06:46 of Guardians of the Galaxy and 1:32:28 of Avengers: Endgame, as established.
      • 9:06:48-0:06:49 audio) "Hai-ail..."
      • 1:32:27-1:32:28 audio) "Hai-ail..."
        • A 1-second gap inserted between shots at 1:32:30, since at least 1 second needs to pass for Quill to stop and then start sliding, but no more than 1 second can pass, as established.
      • 0:06:49-0:06:51 audio) "... hai-ail. No-"
      • 1:32:30-1:32:32 video) Quill slides across a puddle.
      • 1:32:28-1:32:30 audio) "... hai-ail. No-"
        • Immediately following just a 1-second break at 1:32:30, as established. This moment is also featured in Guardians of the Galaxy, but as established, this has to fall here, and that moment has to fall later in the song, so they have to be separate moments. Otherwise, this would not squeeze in before "Come on and find it". This isn't too much of a problem, since Quill is later shown to be sliding again, so that can be taken to be the moment simultaneous to the Guardians of the Galaxy puddle slide.
      • 0:06:51-0:06:52 audio) "-thin' the matter..."
      • 1:32:30-1:32:31 audio) "-thin' the matter..."
        • A 1-second gap inserted between shots at 1:32:32, since at least 1 second needs to pass for Quill to start spinning, but no more than 1 second can pass, as established.
      • 0:06:52-0:06:54 audio) "... with ya head, baby find..."
      • 1:32:32-1:32:34 video) Quill spins around.
      • 1:32:31-1:32:33 audio) "... with ya head, baby find..."
        • Immediately following just a 1-second break at 1:32:32, as established.
      • 0:06:54-0:06:55 audio) "... it."
      • 1:32:33-1:32:34 audio) "... it."
        • A 1-second gap inserted between shots at 1:32:34, since at least 1 second needs to pass for Quill to stop spinning, but no more than 1 second can pass, as established.
      • 0:06:55-0:06:57 audio) "Come on and find it."
      • 1:32:34-1:32:36 video) Quill uses an Orloni as a microphone, singing "Come on and find it".
      • 1:32:34-1:32:36 audio) "Come on and find it."
        • Immediately following just a 1-second break at 1:32:34, as established. This takes it to aligning with the music as Quill sings.
      • 0:06:57-0:07:05 audio) "Hai-ai-ail. With it, baby, 'cause ya fine, and ya mine, and ya... look so di-"
      • 1:32:36-1:32:44 video) Quill dances with the Orloni in-hand, holds it out, struts, and sings again to the Orloni.
      • 1:32:36-1:32:44 audio) "Hai-ai-ail. With it, baby, 'cause ya fine, and ya mine, and ya... look so di-"
        • Aligning with the music as Quill sings.
      • 0:07:05-0:07:06 audio) "-vi-ine."
        • At some point between 0:07:06 and 0:07:26 in Guardians of the Galaxy, the audio jumps a chorus and verse, as by the end of the chorus it is heading into the post-second chorus bridge. 0:07:06-0:07:10 has Quill singing "Come and get your love" in time with the music, and while it's possible that he's just singing along to the second chorus while the music is still on the first chorus (he cannot be singing along to the first chorus, as 0:06:46 of Guardians of the Galaxy does not occur until at least the next "Hai-ail", as established, which is after the first chorus), since the cut has to happen at some point here anyway, it might as well happen at 0:07:06 so 0:07:06-0:07:10 is the second chorus both in the video and audio, in sync.
      • 1:32:44-1:32:45 video) Quill throws the Orloni (p1of2).
      • 1:32:44-1:32:45 audio) "-vi-ine."
        • This seems to follow immediately from the last shot. There's no reason it shouldn't, so it can just follow.
      • 1:32:45-1:32:46 video) Quill throws the Orloni (p2of2).
      • 1:32:45-1:32:46 audio) Music.
        • Second half of the same shot.

      0:46-0:57 song audio) "Come and get your lo-o-ve. Come and get your lo-o-ve. Come and..."

      • 1:32:46-1:32:50 video) Rhodey and Nebula watch Quill sing out of sync with the music.
      • 1:32:46-1:32:50 audio) "(Come and) get your lo-o-ve."
        • Quill is spinning around again as he sings this. Ideally, it could be simultaneous to 0:06:50-0:06:54 of Guardians of the Galaxy. However, that moment is after 0:06:46-0:06:50 of Guardians of the Galaxy, where Quill sings "Hai-ail". The next available "Hai-ail" is the beginning of the second verse, which would mean that, if this scene were alongside the spinning from Guardians of the Galaxy, after that, the next time that there's a "Come and get your love" followed immediately by a "Hai-ail" as in this moment from Avengers: Endgame would be toward the end of the song. At that point, you are a) running out of song for the remainder of the events, b) leaving a lot of dead time during the second verse, second chorus, and bridge, and c) at 0:07:06-0:07:10, after this, Quill sings to another "Come and get your lo-o-ve". While there are "Come and get your love"s after the "Hai-ail" toward the end of the song, they are faint and not in the style of the one Quill gives, clearly meant to be like the music that's playing at that moment - one with a beat before it and a proper "Come and get your lo-o-ve". All in all, this should not be the same spin as the spinning moment in Guardians of the Galaxy. So, it is free to be its own moment, and there are two options: the end of the first chorus and start of the second verse, or the end of the bridge and third chorus, toward the end of the song. The former makes more sense, as, after this, there is a moment where Quill is sliding, which can align with the sliding across the puddle moment from Guardians of the Galaxy. That moment, on its own, naturally falls around the end of the second verse, a while before the end of the third chorus. So, if that moment is to be side-by-side with the sliding scene of Avengers: Endgame after this, then this should be before the sliding scene from Guardians of the Galaxy, so ideally before the end of the second chorus, meaning it should be the "Come and get your love" followed by a "Hai-ail" at the end of the first chorus, beginning of second verse. This works better anyway, following only a few seconds after the last shot of Quill, rather than a big jump. Since the "Hai-ail" at 0:06:46-0:06:50 of Guardians of the Galaxy also appears to be the "Hai-ail" at the beginning of the second verse, that would make it the same "Hai-ail" that Quill sings at 1:32:54-1:32:58 of Avengers: Endgame, presumably picking up the Orloni just after the camera pans away from him in that film. Quill's singing does not line up, not leaving enough space between the "Love" and "Hai-ail", so it has to be considered out of sync, as part of the joke. However, with the "Hai-ail" lining up with Guardians of the Galaxy's "Hai-ail", and that seemingly being in sync, it can be decided that the "Come and get your love" part is where he is out of sync.
      • 1:32:50-1:32:54 video) Rhodey and Nebula turn to each other and agree Quill is an idiot (p1of3).
      • 1:32:50-1:32:54 audio) "Come and get your love.
        • These seconds are between the moment we last see Quill in this shot and the moment by which he should be picking up the Orloni, from the simultaneous scene in Guardians of the Galaxy. It's 4 seconds, which works fine for him stopping spinning and picking up the Orloni".
      • 0:06:46-0:06:50 video) Quill grabs an Orloni and sings "Hai-ail" to it.
        • This plays simultaneous to the "Hai-ail" of the first verse, but as established, it cannot be. The best place then is the equivalent "Hai-ail" of the second verse. If not, the only option would be later in the second verse or toward the end of the song, but after this there is a proper "Come and get your lo-o-ove" from Quill, and there is not a proper one of those after the "Hai-ail" toward the end of the song and the one very shortly after the one in later in the second verse is too soon after to fit, so again, there is not a proper "Come and get your lo-o-ove" (that fits) after that "Hai-ail". So, this should be the "Hai-ail" at the beginning of the second verse.
      • 1:32:54-1:32:58 video) Rhodey and Nebula turn to each other and agree Quill is an idiot (p2of3).
      • 1:32:54-1:32:58 audio) "Oh, yeah. Hai-ail. (Hai-ail.)
        • The "Hai-ail" is then in time with him singing it in Guardians of the Galaxy. While it does look like mouthing in that film, I guess he's really singing it, just faintly and badly.
      • 1:09-1:12 song audio) "What's the matter with ya feel right?"
        • So, 0:06:50 is at 1:09 of the song, and at 0:07:06, Quill has reached "Come and get your lo-o-ove", 1:42 of the song. This means that an extra 17 seconds should be inserted between shots at cuts between 0:06:50 and 0:07:06. The best distribution of the 17 seconds, based on how much Quill has moved/changed position, is roughly: 4 seconds at 0:06:50, 1 second at 0:06:54, 1 second at 0:06:58, 5 seconds at 0:07:02, 6 seconds at 0:07:06. So, this is the (first 3 seconds of the) 4-second insertion at 0:06:50. Adding in the song audio here because the Avengers: Endgame audio doesn't involve the song.
      • 1:32:58-1:33:01) Rhodey and Nebula turn to each other and agree Quill is an idiot (p1of3).

      1:12-1:13 song audio) "Don't ya..."
      The (final second of the) 4-second insertion at 0:06:50, as established.

      • 0:06:50-0:06:54 video) Quill struts along.
      • 1:13-1:17 song audio) "... feel right, baby? Hai-ail. Oh..."

      1:17-1:18 song audio) "... yeah."
      The 1-second insertion at 0:06:54, as established.

      • 0:06:54-0:06:58 video) Quill spins around.
      • 1:18-1:22 song audio) "Get it from the main vine, alri-ight."

      1:22-1:23 song audio) Music.
      The 1-second insertion at 0:06:58, as established.

      • 0:06:58-0:07:02 video) Quill spins slower and grooves along.
      • 1:23-1:27 song audio) "I said a-find it, find it. Go on..."

      1:27-1:32 song audio) "... and love it if you like it, yeah-eah."
      The 5-second insertion at 0:07:02, as established.

      • 0:07:02-0:07:06 video) Quill finds a Korbinite skeleton.
      • 1:32-1:36 song audio) "Hai-ail, hai-ail. It's... "

      1:36-1:42 song audio) "... your business if you want some, take some. Get it together, baby."
      The 6-second insertion at 0:07:06, as established.

      • 0:07:06-0:07:10 video) Quill holds an Orloni outstretched as he sings, "Come and get your lo-o-ve."
      • 0:07:06-0:07:10 audio) "Come and get your lo-o-ve."
      • 0:07:10-0:07:21 audio) "Come and get your lo-o-ve. Come and get your lo-o-ve. Come and get..."
        • We're now in the final stretch of the song. We're at 0:07:10 in Guardians of the Galaxy, and the song cuts out 42 seconds later at 0:07:52. Let's call that the end of the song sequence. So at least 42 seconds, plus at least 3 seconds inserted at 0:07:10 for Quill to drop the Orloni and start sliding and plus at least 7 seconds inserted at 0:07:31 for Quill to get to the top of the steps and start using his unlocking tool, needs to play out before the end of the song sequence at 0:07:52 of Guardians of the Galaxy. By 0:07:10, it is at 1:46 of the song, so if the minimum time elapsed then the song sequence would end at 2:38 of the song. At a maximum, it goes all the way to the end of the song at 3:26. So, using the midpoint for an approximation, we can take it that the song sequence ends at about 3:02 of the song. This means an additional approximate 24 seconds of real time should elapse in the final stretch of this song. There are the two necessary gaps, at 0:07:10 and 0:07:31, plus it doesn't hurt to add a few seconds at 0:07:15 and 0:07:28. Using a 2:1 necessary : doesn't hurt ratio of distributing the 24 seconds into the cuts, it gives 16 seconds to put into the two necessary gaps and 8 seconds to put into the two other gaps, so 8 additional seconds giving 11 total seconds inserted at 0:07:10, 4 seconds at 0:07:15, 4 seconds at 0:07:28, and 8 additional seconds giving 15 total seconds at 0:07:31. So, this is the 11-second insertion at 0:07:10.
      • 0:07:10-0:07:13 video) Quill slides across a puddle (p1of2).
      • 0:07:21-0:07:24 audio) "... your love."
      • 1:33:01-1:33:04 video) Quill slides, but is suddenly knocked out by Rhodey.
        • As established, this lines up with the sliding across the puddle.
      • 0:07:13-0:07:15 video) Quill slides across a puddle (p2of2).
      • 0:07:24-0:07:26 audio) Instrumental.
      • 1:33:04-1:33:06 video) Nebula takes the tool from Quill's bag (p1of4).
      • 2:02-2:05 song audio) "Come and get your love, come and get your love, come and get your love now."
        • The (first 3 seconds of the) 4-second insertion at 0:07:15, as established. There is a 3-second jump in the audio at 0:07:26, skipping one "Come and get your love, come and get your love, come and get your love now". Putting the song audio in to cover those 3 seconds.
      • 1:33:06-1:33:09 video) Nebula takes the tool from Quill's bag (p2of4).
      • 0:07:26-0:07:27 audio) "Come..."
        • The (final second of the) 4-second insertion at 0:07:15, as established.
      • 1:33:09-1:33:10 video) Nebula takes the tool from Quill's bag (p3of4).
      • 0:07:15-0:07:18 video) Quill boogeys up to the chasm (p1of2).
      • 0:07:27-0:07:30 audio) "... and get your love, come and get your love, come and get your love now."
      • 1:33:10-1:33:13 video) Nebula takes the tool from Quill's bag (p4of4).
      • 0:07:18-0:07:19 video) Quill boogeys up to the chasm (p2of2).
      • 0:07:30-0:07:31 audio) Instrumental.
      • 0:07:19-0:07:23 video) Quill looks at the chasm below.
      • 0:07:31-0:07:35 audio) "Come and get your love, come and get your love, come and get your love now."
      • 0:07:23-0:07:25 video) Quill fires up his boots.
      • 0:07:35-0:07:37 audio) "Come and get your love..."
      • 0:07:25-0:07:28 video) Quill flies over the chasm.
      • 0:07:37-0:07:40 audio) "... come and get your love, come and get your love now."
      • 0:07:40-0:07:44 audio) "Come and get your lo-o-ve."
        • The 4-second insertion at 0:07:28, as established.
      • 0:07:28-0:07:31 video) Quill hops up the steps.
      • 0:07:44-0:07:47 audio) "Come and get your..."
      • 0:07:47-0:07:52 audio) "... lo-o-ove. Come and get your lo-..."
        • The (first 5 seconds of the) 15-second insertion at 0:07:31, as established.
      • 2:31-2:40 song audio) "...-o-ove. Come and get your love. Hai-."
        • The (next 9 seconds of the) 15-second insertion at 0:07:31, as established. The audio has now finished, at 0:07:52, in Guardians of the Galaxy, so just using song audio to fill the gaps from here on.
      • 2:40-2:41 song audio) "-ail."
        • The (final second of the) 15-second insertion at 0:07:31, as established.
      • 1:33:13-1:33:14) Nebula unlocks the door and ignores Rhodey's caution, proceeding into the temple (p1of2).
        • It has been established that it takes Quill roughly 41 seconds to get from where he is on the puddle (when he's knocked in the new timeline) to the door of the temple. Without all the dancing and distractions, it is likely that Nebula and Rhodey could get there in about half the time, so roughly 21 seconds. Therefore, them arriving at the temple at 1:33:13 is approximately 21 seconds after Nebula finishes taking the tool from his bag.
      • 0:07:31-0:07:52 video) Quill breaks in and puts down the light ball.
      • 2:41-3:02 song audio) "Hai-ail. What's the matter with ya feel right? Don't ya feel right, baby? Hai-ail. Oh, yeah. Get it from the main vine, alri-ight."
        • Lining up to end with roughly 3:02 of song, as established.
      • 1:33:14-1:33:35) Nebula unlocks the door and ignores Rhodey's caution, proceeding into the temple (p2of2).
      • 0:07:52-0:07:56) The Orb sits in the protective field (p1of2).
      • 1:33:35-1:34:39) Rhodey follows Nebula in.
      • 0:07:56-0:08:11) Korath arrives.
        • This falls somewhere between the placement of the 0:07:31-0:07:56 and 0:08:11-0:09:27 scenes. Placing it immediately after 0:07:31-0:07:56 to give Korath and his team maximum time to find their way to the temple.
      • 1:33:39-1:33:52) Nebula reaches into the field and pulls out the Orb. The field dissipates.
      • 1:33:52-1:36:34) Rhodey heads back to 2023 but Nebula is stuck. Thanos finds out about his death. He gives 2014 Nebula a chance to prove herself. 2023 Nebula wakes up and realises she has to warn the others.
      • 0:08:11-0:09:27) Quill gets the Orb. Korath arrives and Quill dodges a blast from him.
        • Korath arrives at 0:08:26. There's no reason he would arrive later in Avengers: Endgame, so, assuming Nebula leaves the temple at least a good 20 seconds before Korath is set to walk through the door, then there's at least 5 seconds between Avengers: Endgame 1:36:34 and Guardians of the Galaxy 0:08:11, so this scene is cleanly after the last Avengers: Endgame scene. As with the 2012 and 2013 side-by-sides, I'm not including clean jumps in time to make it all a real time timeline, all that's important is the chronology. I only did it above because of the song.
      • 0:09:27-0:09:54) Quill escapes and makes a big leap.
      • 1:36:34-1:37:01) Nebula is kidnapped.
        • Assuming just the minimum 20ish seconds between Nebula waking and Korath stepping through the door, since it is somewhat worth minimising the time span between 0:07:56 and 0:08:11 of Guardians of the Galaxy, as Quill does not appear to have been in the temple long. It takes Quill roughly 2:41 to get through Morag to the temple. Assuming it would take roughly half that time or someone not dancing/getting distracted. Nebula is running, so even faster, but she's going a bit further, so overall, still about half the time, 1:21, inserted between shots at 1:36:34. The 5 seconds between Avengers: Endgame 1:36:34 and Guardians of the Galaxy 0:08:11, then 1:16, meaning 1:36:34-1:37:01 of Avengers: Endgame is simultaneous to roughly 0:09:27-0:09:54 of Guardians of the Galaxy.
      • 0:09:54-0:11:21) Quill gets back to the Milano.
      • 0:11:21-0:11:35) Quill flies away.
      • 1:46:38-1:47:59) 2023 Nebula talks to Gamora. 2014 Nebula takes her head plate.
        • At least a few minutes after 1:37:01. The remainder of the Guardians of the Galaxy sequence is 1:41 long, plus some additional time inserted at 0:11:21 but not much since Quill is desperate to get away. So, overall, this would be after that.
      • 1:47:59-1:48:11) 2014 Nebula goes to Thanos, showing him the replaced plate.
      • 1:48:11-1:48:24) Arriving on Vormir.
      • 1:48:24-1:48:32) Natasha and Clint walk over the dunes.
      • 1:48:32-1:49:19) Natasha and Clint meet Red Skull.
      • 1:49:19-1:50:08) Red Skull explains about the sacrifice.
      • 1:50:08-1:55:07) Natasha's sacrifice.
      • 0:11:35-0:13:05) Quill gets a call from Yondu, who is on Morag, finding the Orb gone.
        • This is enough time after Quill's escape that the rest of the 2014 Avengers: Endgame events can have played out.
        Loading editor
    • Awesome side by side. I was just thinking the other day about how these events would play together simultaneously. I think I want to make a fan edit of that soon. Thanks for doing the research!

      Also I know you're still working on the past dates for Captain Marvel, but here are notes on it I made recently:

      1970? - Captain Marvel 1:01:28 Young Carol pilot costume

      1972? - Captain Marvel 1:29:24-1:29:28, 1:30:00-1:30:04, 1:30:20-1:30:22 Young Carol falling at beach

      1973? - Captain Marvel 15:58-16:08 Carol stargazing with her brother

      1974? - Captain Marvel 1:29:28-1:29:30, 1:30:04-1:30:06, 1:30:09-1:30:10, 1:30:16-1:30:17 Young Carol crashes on bike

      1974? - Captain Marvel 1:29:32-1:29:36, 1:30:06-1:30:09, 1:30:13-1:30:16 Young Carol playing baseball

      1974? - Captain Marvel 1:01:22 Young Carol with dad pic

      1974? - Captain Marvel 14:54-15:24, 1:29:30-1:29:32, 1:30:10-1:30:13, 1:30:17-1:30:20 Young Carol on go kart

      1985? - Captain Marvel 1:01:26 Christmas picture with Carol, Maria and Monica

      1987? - Captain Marvel 15:28-15:45, 1:29:36-1:29:38, 1:30:22-1:30:24 Air Force training rope climbing, she falls

      1988? - Captain Marvel 15:46-15:50 Carol in a bar, guy tells her she's too emotional to be pilot (She is wearing the same outfit as in the polaroid picture that Maria shows Carol. Maria says this is a picture of when Carol graduated from the Air Force academy so maybe this flashback is also the same night when she graduated)

      1988? - Captain Marvel 15:50-15:54 Carol and Maria playing pool in bar

      1988? - Captain Marvel 15:54-15:58 Carol singing karaoke with Maria Rambeau

      1988? - Captain Marvel 16:08-16:20 Carol stargazing with Monica Rambeau

      1988? - Captain Marvel 1:01:16 Halloween pic with Carol and Monica Rambeau

      1988? - Captain Marvel 48:26-48:30 Wendy Lawson (Mar-Vell) talks about ending wars

      1988? - Captain Marvel 16:20-17:26 taking to Wendy Lawson (Mar-Vell) at base (memories altered by Skrulls?)

      1988? - Captain Marvel 14:10-14:54 Air Force hanger, Carol talking to Maria Rambeau, about to do a test flight (memories altered by Skrulls?)

        Loading editor
    • any updates coming to the timeline? thanks for all your hard work

        Loading editor
    • A few years later, but can help: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. S3 E11 picks up roughly THREE months after E10. So I would say, very Early 2016, and mid-late March 2016.

        Loading editor
    • Seems like the shot of Peter's passport is not on the Extended Cut (from the video I saw), so it looks like there won't be any need to change any dates.

        Loading editor
    • In E13 of Jessica Jones S3, right after Luke Cage leaves, Jones' laptop (I think) or her phone has a Wednesday 5th date, which indicates a June 5, 2018 date. I don't know if it has been noticed before. So at the latest, Infinity War begins on June 12th.

        Loading editor
    • Time Heist Side-By-Side (CirUmeUela)

      CirUmeUela wrote: Awesome side by side. I was just thinking the other day about how these events would play together simultaneously. I think I want to make a fan edit of that soon. Thanks for doing the research!

      That's alright, I quite liked doing it. The other reason I did it was to establish the exact order for the columns of the 2012, 2013, and 2014 pages. Done some fixes already, will properly write it all up soon.


      Captain Marvel Past Dates (CirUmeUela)

      CirUmeUela wrote: Also I know you're still working on the past dates for Captain Marvel, but here are notes on it I made recently:

      1970? - Captain Marvel 1:01:28 Young Carol pilot costume

      1972? - Captain Marvel 1:29:24-1:29:28, 1:30:00-1:30:04, 1:30:20-1:30:22 Young Carol falling at beach

      1973? - Captain Marvel 15:58-16:08 Carol stargazing with her brother

      1974? - Captain Marvel 1:29:28-1:29:30, 1:30:04-1:30:06, 1:30:09-1:30:10, 1:30:16-1:30:17 Young Carol crashes on bike

      1974? - Captain Marvel 1:29:32-1:29:36, 1:30:06-1:30:09, 1:30:13-1:30:16 Young Carol playing baseball

      1974? - Captain Marvel 1:01:22 Young Carol with dad pic

      1974? - Captain Marvel 14:54-15:24, 1:29:30-1:29:32, 1:30:10-1:30:13, 1:30:17-1:30:20 Young Carol on go kart

      1985? - Captain Marvel 1:01:26 Christmas picture with Carol, Maria and Monica

      1987? - Captain Marvel 15:28-15:45, 1:29:36-1:29:38, 1:30:22-1:30:24 Air Force training rope climbing, she falls

      1988? - Captain Marvel 15:46-15:50 Carol in a bar, guy tells her she's too emotional to be pilot (She is wearing the same outfit as in the polaroid picture that Maria shows Carol. Maria says this is a picture of when Carol graduated from the Air Force academy so maybe this flashback is also the same night when she graduated)

      1988? - Captain Marvel 15:50-15:54 Carol and Maria playing pool in bar

      1988? - Captain Marvel 15:54-15:58 Carol singing karaoke with Maria Rambeau

      1988? - Captain Marvel 16:08-16:20 Carol stargazing with Monica Rambeau

      1988? - Captain Marvel 1:01:16 Halloween pic with Carol and Monica Rambeau

      1988? - Captain Marvel 48:26-48:30 Wendy Lawson (Mar-Vell) talks about ending wars

      1988? - Captain Marvel 16:20-17:26 taking to Wendy Lawson (Mar-Vell) at base (memories altered by Skrulls?)

      1988? - Captain Marvel 14:10-14:54 Air Force hanger, Carol talking to Maria Rambeau, about to do a test flight (memories altered by Skrulls?)

      I'll be taking these into account when I get to the past dates soon, thanks for the suggestions. Some of it relies on Carol's date of birth, which I'll be recalculating (more accurately) as part of this. Also, there's things like young Carol's actresses specifically being credited by age, as well as young(er) Monica I believe.

      The test flight, though, is 1989, not 1988.


      Anything Coming Up? (Jazz2405)

      Jazz2405 wrote: any updates coming to the timeline? thanks for all your hard work

      Updates coming soon are:

      • Final decision on Jessica Jones: Season 3.
      • Final decision on the exact dates of Runaways: Season 2 (there are two options, just a few days apart). Will be summarising the problems and asking about these two soon, for people's opinions.
      • Further write-ups. Just finished Luke Cage: Season 2. Will be doing the rest of Iron Fist: Season 2 and a lot of Daredevil: Season 3 in the next 4 weeks, and hopefully up-to-date on all the rest (Runaways: Season 2, The Punisher: Season 2, Cloak & Dagger: Season 2, Jessica Jones: Season 3, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 6) by the time Black Widow is released, ending a dry spell of 8 months, including just Runaways; Season 3, from August 2019 to April 2020. Details can be found here.
      • Updates to the Luke Cage past events' dates.
      • Some bits and pieces like correcting the Daredevil: Season 1 1990s events, one of the days of Spider-Man: Homecoming after the Spider-Man: Far from Home Prelude, some remaining promotional videos needing placing.
      • Captain Marvel past dates calculations and write-up.
      • Avengers: Endgame write-up and corrections of current write-ups.
      • Avengers: Endgame past dates write-up.
      • Spider-Man: Far from Hope write-up and corrections of current write-ups.
      • Spider-Man: Far from Home past dates write-up.
      • Putting the novels onto the timeline pages.

      At some point:

      • Collating all canon social media posts' information for the timeline.
      • Tweaking 2015 dates slightly, revolving around Avengers: Age of Ultron corrections.
      • Sweeps of the timeline articles for corrections, referencing, removing unsourced information, etc., at some point in the near future.
      • Some other bits and pieces.
      • Eventually, my full project collating all notes.


      Bouncing Back (Marvelus)

      Marvelus wrote: A few years later, but can help: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. S3 E11 picks up roughly THREE months after E10. So I would say, very Early 2016, and mid-late March 2016.

      Thanks Marvelus. Obviously that's not a quote, so it's possible that's just EW assuming real time has passed, but nonetheless, it's relevant for notes.


      Spider-Man: Far from Home Extended Cut (DaenerysTheMadKhal58)

      DaenerysTheMadKhal58 wrote: Seems like the shot of Peter's passport is not on the Extended Cut (from the video I saw), so it looks like there won't be any need to change any dates.

      Thanks! After you mentioned this, I found the extra footage on YouTube, it hadn't been taken down yet. Looks like it is indeed just Peter's To-Do List, except, as you say, that actual shot isn't in the footage. Wonder if that means it will be the same way on Peter's To-Do List when that gets separately released, or if that will be slightly longer, with a bit more footage.

      This is the kind of reason why I make sure to only go by evidence already released, because you never know what might happen.

      Obviously the trailer shot is still relevant, plus the Twitter post of the passport with the same dates, but I wouldn't say there's quite enough there to overrule the implication of the film. If it turns up somewhere else as well, that's probably enough - after all, you can fairly simply make an assumption that the school went over a little due to restarting the year in late October. But I would say for now, still enough to just not quite be making assumptions.


      Jessica Jones: Season 3 (Marvelus)

      Marvelus wrote: In E13 of Jessica Jones S3, right after Luke Cage leaves, Jones' laptop (I think) or her phone has a Wednesday 5th date, which indicates a June 5, 2018 date. I don't know if it has been noticed before. So at the latest, Infinity War begins on June 12th.

      This has been discussed before Marvelus, but the Wednesday 5th date was a further problem, because it supported the late 2018 placement. The 5th fell on a Wednesday in July 2017, September 2018, and December 2018, but not June sadly. You're thinking of June 2019.

      I think, considering filming dates, they shot the scene on Wednesday, December 5, 2018.


      Some Updates (additional)

      I've finished Marvel's Avengers: Infinity War: The Cosmic Quest Volume Two: Aftermath now. Seems to be set over a few days in August 2018 (a "few months" after the Snap, "summer") and then an epilogue one month later.

      Now that I've finished it, I've just reached out to Brandon T. Snider on Twitter DMs about the Selvig problem. If he doesn't get back, I'll try his email. Hoping for a response, obviously.

      Now started Marvel's Avengers: Infinity War: The Heroes' Journey, about 50 pages in (it's a longer one, though). So far, I'm enjoying it the most of the four I've got to, with a focus on main Avengers characters and filling in some gaps (Natasha spoke to Everett Ross soon after Germany, distracting him for Steve while he broke into the Raft, he let her go and pretended she was never there; going on to explain Steve, Sam, and Natasha going to the Middle East), and there's a jump of a few weeks where it's possible Black Widow could still compatibly fall. Also, just as Marvel's Avengers: Infinity War: The Cosmic Quest Volume One: Beginning acknowledged Avengers: Age of Ultron Prelude - This Scepter'd Isle Infinite Comic, this book acknowledges the Avengers: Infinity War Prelude, talking about how Bucky accompanied Steve to the Raft, just didn't get involved, and that only then they flew on to Wakanda. Brandon T. Snider mentions having Will Corona Pilgrim as a consultant on his books, so I imagine Pilgrim is involved with these books as well as the comics, so that would explain the continuity.

      Will post Volume Two: Aftermath notes soon, and obviously post Marvel's Avengers: Infinity War: The Heroes' Journey notes once I'm done with that one. Then will be proceeding with the remaining books in release order (didn't quite do release order to begin with due to just which books I had and didn't have, and wanting to get to the Selvig problem A.S.A.P.), so Captain Marvel: Higher, Further, Faster, then Avengers: Endgame The Pirate Angel, The Talking Tree, and Captain Rabbit , then Avengers: Infinity War Destiny Arrives, and then Spider-Man: Far from Home: Peter and Ned's Ultimate Travel Journal.

      Write-ups are currently on a brief break as I can't do the Luke Cage past dates stuff on the list until I've finished the calculations for the past dates. So I'm currently doing the complete rewrite of my Luke Cage Past Dates blog, should be done soon-ish.

      My blog dissecting every quote about the time travel, timelines, multiverse, etc. so far is nearly there, after a lot of tiresome work. Just helpful as a) a resource, and b) to make sure my thoughts are clear.

      I'll soon, as mentioned above, summarise the Runaways: Season 2 and Jessica Jones: Season 3 problems and ask you guys for final opinions, as well.

      And I'll be getting to the other things listed above: Captain Marvel past dates, Avengers: Endgame corrections, and other bits and pieces.

        Loading editor
    • The quote of roughly 3 months was said by Elizabeth. Or am I wrong? Also, yes, I made a mistake with the June 2018 date. Sorry.

      Are you planning to add Volume 2 to the timeline after it was deemed non canon in the wiki?

        Loading editor
    • Hey. 3:40 minutes before E13 wraps up (JJS3), I heard someone saying Iron Man. Did I hear wrong? Could someone check it please so I don't think I am crazy.

        Loading editor
    • Marvelus wrote: The quote of roughly 3 months was said by Elizabeth. Or am I wrong? Also, yes, I made a mistake with the June 2018 date. Sorry.

      "It’s been roughly three months since the events that happened on Maveth, but Simmons is “still in the grieving process,” Elizabeth Henstridge tells me. “She’s experiencing some survivor’s guilt. Fitz has been so supportive throughout the whole thing. She’s going further down that path with him and her feelings. She loves him and wants to be with him. She hasn’t forgotten about Will, but it’s more the guilt she’s carrying. They’re taking things slowly on whether they’re going to get together or not.”"

      It's the writer saying 3 months. The implication might be that she heard that from Elizabeth, but it's very much possible the writer is just saying 3 months because of an assumption based on real time.

      Marvelus wrote: Are you planning to add Volume 2 to the timeline after it was deemed non canon in the wiki?

      Not if it's still considered non-canon on the wiki, even if I don't like it. It would be a waste of time, just removed anyway.

      But hoping Snider weighs in and it can be named canon.

      Marvelus wrote: Hey. 3:40 minutes before E13 wraps up (JJS3), I heard someone saying Iron Man. Did I hear wrong? Could someone check it please so I don't think I am crazy.

      Just checked for you, and yes, it does sound like that. Interesting. Hard to tell what else he says (not in the subtitles), and you'd think if they put an Iron Man Easter egg in, it would be properly audible. But it does sound like it.

      Still got the Cap namedrop in Episode 1. Plus the Raft and the GT Agrochemical reference.

        Loading editor
    • Maybe they are talking about Iron Man's disappearance in New York :o

        Loading editor
    • "Oh ???? say Iron Man"?

      What ever they were talking about involved Iron Man.

        Loading editor
    • Again, it might be a tie in to Infinity War, and if we get this corroborated, we might have a firm statement that contradicts the "Mother's Day" line.

      I might be blowing up this out of proportion but, just think about it :3

        Loading editor
    • BEJT wrote:
      The test flight, though, is 1989, not 1988.

      Oh yes, I didn't put the 1989 flashback on there, when Carol gets her powers in the crash, because it was already on the timeline. This part...

      1988? - Captain Marvel 14:10-14:54 Air Force hanger, Carol talking to Maria Rambeau, about to do a test flight (memories altered by Skrulls?)

      ...is from early in the film when Talos is probing Vers's mind and looking at her memories. They replay it about three times to get the alias of Mar-Vell from her nametag. So I'm just assuming this was a different occasion than the crash where she got her powers, so maybe another flight test. But it could still be 1989 or even the same day as the crash.

        Loading editor
    • Wait, what's the Selvig problem? Is it that he's the main character in the novel and reported as missing in Endgame? He could've just been underground searching for Jane with Darcy. I'm sure quite a few people got lost in the shuffle during the first few months of the Snap.

        Loading editor
    • To the admins' eye, that is speculation. And the movies are the lead dog, so "non canon".

        Loading editor
    • Marvelus wrote: To the admins' eye, that is speculation. And the movies are the lead dog, so "non canon".

      To the admins' eye, and to everyone who knows the meaning of that word. Stop picturing admins as the bad guys.

        Loading editor
    • It was not clearly my intention to make you look as the bad guys, sorry for the misunderstanding. While there might be a valid explanation to why Selvig is considered dead (as the book, I think, explains that he went "off the ground" to not be found.) we cannot use that as a fact.

        Loading editor
    • Not to step on toes, but speculation is kind of necessary sometimes, as we don't see 100% of these characters' lives. I mean, I'm not saying craft a 20-chapter fan-fiction about how Man-Thing went from being in SHIELD's custody to fighting on Sakaar, but in times of "regular" disasters (or regular in comparison to the disappearance of half of all life), survivors here and there do tend to disappear and be mistaken for casualties until they turn up later. Selvig not only has a talent for going off the grid, he has a history of it, both of which were shown in the Dark World, where he'd been missing for quite a while until he snapped and streaked across Stonehenge. While it is certainly speculation that he would go off the grid during the first few months of the Snap, it's not a particularly unrealistic one.

        Loading editor
    • Didn't the author say the book was canon at some point? If so, why not treat this like Guardians of the Galaxy: Prelude, using perspective to explain why it works? I'd argue that this book works better than that comic anyways.

        Loading editor
    • Iron Man Mention in AKA Everything (Marvelus, ProBot1227)

      Marvelus wrote: Maybe they are talking about Iron Man's disappearance in New York :o

      Thought that might be where your mind was going. The scene should really be on a Sunday, while Tony's disappearance should be a Wednesday, so it can't really actually be that. But it's nice to sort of think of it in that approximate way if indeed it is around the same time.

      ProBot1227 wrote: "Oh ???? say Iron Man"?

      What ever they were talking about involved Iron Man.

      Marvelus wrote: Again, it might be a tie in to Infinity War, and if we get this corroborated, we might have a firm statement that contradicts the "Mother's Day" line.

      I might be blowing up this out of proportion but, just think about it :3

      If I'm perfectly honest, I do think that's a bit of a stretch. It's likely just purely an Iron Man nod. As I mentioned on the discussions, if they were going to give an Infinity War nod it would make sense for it to be in the final ever Marvel Netflix scene, as a "Hey, we've been behind Infinity War all this time, now imagine, if you will, that just after we finish, we finally get there", but still, I doubt it - if they did, it would be more clear and explicit. It's a nice notion, but not an actual factor I believe, nor something that can be corroborated. But if it were, that would be cool.


      Captain Marvel 1989 (CirUmeUela)

      CirUmeUela wrote: Oh yes, I didn't put the 1989 flashback on there, when Carol gets her powers in the crash, because it was already on the timeline. This part...

      1988? - Captain Marvel 14:10-14:54 Air Force hanger, Carol talking to Maria Rambeau, about to do a test flight (memories altered by Skrulls?)

      ...is from early in the film when Talos is probing Vers's mind and looking at her memories. They replay it about three times to get the alias of Mar-Vell from her nametag. So I'm just assuming this was a different occasion than the crash where she got her powers, so maybe another flight test. But it could still be 1989 or even the same day as the crash.

      Sorry, I only skim-read so seeing all the 1988s at the end I thought there might have been a mistake. Anyway, will let you know once I've done the dates. Sorry that I can't be of much help before then.


      Erik Selvig (Edward Zachary Sunrose, Marvelus, Shabook, Edward Zachary Sunrose, ProBot1227)

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Wait, what's the Selvig problem? Is it that he's the main character in the novel and reported as missing in Endgame? He could've just been underground searching for Jane with Darcy. I'm sure quite a few people got lost in the shuffle during the first few months of the Snap.

      I've read the book, he's essentially gone off the grid for the few months since the Snap (the book is set a few months after). Darcy gets a call from him in the middle of the night to come and meet him at the motel he's been staying at, but she hasn't heard from him otherwise since the Snap, and he's been living in this motel in the middle of nowhere, working all night and taking occasional naps in the day, going crazy as he tries to figure everything out, living messily, and avoiding human contact except with this 12-year-old boy called Felix who he befriends. It's more than possible that 23 days after the Snap, he was still missing. The book also establishes that Jane managed to disappear, without people knowing whether she was alive or not (she's alive), and Endgame establishes that mistakes happened concerning people who disappeared at the time of the Snap being listed, with Scott Lang.

      I don't really think it's much of a problem personally, but some do.

      Marvelus wrote: To the admins' eye, that is speculation. And the movies are the lead dog, so "non canon".

      Shabook wrote: To the admins' eye, and to everyone who knows the meaning of that word. Stop picturing admins as the bad guys.

      I think the difference is that this isn't about speculating something that might've happened, but rather just, "Well something must have happened" and then just speculating what that thing might have been. The focus is on the fact that there are possibilities, not the specific possibility.

      As ProBot1227 goes on to mention, there's the Guardians of the Galaxy Prelude, being canon, and then Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 contradicting it somewhat. But there are options. Maybe when she talks about the flesh of her arm she just means it's attached to her flesh. Maybe when Thanos pulls it out the pain comes from the fact that, while he's pulling on the bionic arm, at the joint at the shoulder there is still flesh being torn. Maybe she just means he pulled her bionic arm out. To pick one as canon would be speculation, but to just say that they're not incompatible is not, that's a fact so long as there are any options (within reason, I always found the "Maybe Fury is just in disguise in Nick Fury: Spies Like Us with an eye-patch that happens to be on the same eye he later wears an eye-patch on" stretching too far, but then also Nick Fury: Spies Like Us was only "inspired", disposable canon). And Avengers: Endgame and Marvel's Avengers: Infinity War: The Cosmic Quest Volume Two: Aftermath are definitely not incompatible, especially considering what Aftermath says Selvig has been doing, they're more compatible than Guardians of the Galaxy Prelude and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2. So there's no need to throw it out, in our opinion.

      The "maybe the reason he's shown as presumed dead is because he was doing x, y, and z" or whatever explanation is definitely speculation to everyone who knows the meaning of that word, as you say, but I hope you'll see why we don't believe saying they aren't incompatible aren't.

      Marvelus wrote: It was not clearly my intention to make you look as the bad guys, sorry for the misunderstanding. While there might be a valid explanation to why Selvig is considered dead (as the book, I think, explains that he went "off the ground" to not be found.) we cannot use that as a fact.

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Not to step on toes, but speculation is kind of necessary sometimes, as we don't see 100% of these characters' lives. I mean, I'm not saying craft a 20-chapter fan-fiction about how Man-Thing went from being in SHIELD's custody to fighting on Sakaar, but in times of "regular" disasters (or regular in comparison to the disappearance of half of all life), survivors here and there do tend to disappear and be mistaken for casualties until they turn up later. Selvig not only has a talent for going off the grid, he has a history of it, both of which were shown in the Dark World, where he'd been missing for quite a while until he snapped and streaked across Stonehenge. While it is certainly speculation that he would go off the grid during the first few months of the Snap, it's not a particularly unrealistic one.

      ProBot1227 wrote: Didn't the author say the book was canon at some point? If so, why not treat this like Guardians of the Galaxy: Prelude, using perspective to explain why it works? I'd argue that this book works better than that comic anyways.

      It hasn't been explicitly said that these are official canon, so that's a chunk of the problem, unlike the Guardians of the Galaxy Prelude which is official canon. He explained when Volume One: Beginning was set in the timeline, implying canon, and everything about the way Marvel have promoted these books, labelled them, linked them, and dispelled other ones that are non-canon such as Thanos: Titan Consumed, as well as Will Corona Pilgrim overseeing them the same way as the comics, implies they are canon. But we are indeed waiting on an official confirmation. That's part of what I've contacted Snider about, asking specifically not just for his word but if he were told something by someone higher like Will Corona Pilgrim (the writer just saying for themselves that it's canon is not massively authoritative).

      Hopefully I get a response soon to clear things up.

        Loading editor
    • https://youtu.be/yd9mRToz73c It's 4 minutes longer than the theatrical cut, so it's not just Peter's to-do List?

        Loading editor
    • I've been following this sites timeline for several years now and I think you all have done a fantastic job of trying to organise all parts of the MCU into one logical timeline. It really can't be easy but I feel you have done the best job with what’s available.

      The only thing I feel is missing is one easy to follow timeline that gives only basic information and makes the best use of the effort you have put into arranging the films and TV shows around each other. At the moment the main Timeline page has a couple of overlapping series in columns and vague dates connecting them.

      The individual pages for each year are brilliantly detailed and are great for pinpointing when certain events take place but it takes a bit of work to establish when the films or tv episodes start and finish. It would be incredibly useful if there was a simple timeline that ordered all the films, TV shows, comics etc together with start and finish dates so that you could quickly and easily find where they all fit with each other. This would also be useful for finding where ones you haven't yet seen are located without coming across potential spoilers on the year pages.

      It wouldn't need much information just Film/Series title, Episode title, Series/Episode no., Start date, Finish date. Enough to see how they all fit together without being too complicated. And with all the new shows over the next few years, an easy to follow timeline would be very welcome. 

        Loading editor
    • Spider-Man: Far from Home Extended Cut (ProBot1227)

      ProBot1227 wrote: https://youtu.be/yd9mRToz73c It's 4 minutes longer than the theatrical cut, so it's not just Peter's to-do List?

      Wow, the video's still up. I thought it would get taken down fast.

      I had assumed that it was just one of those funny things with film run times. If you start looking into them too much, like I have, there's lots of discrepancies because credits are slightly longer sometimes for 3D and/or IMAX due to the extra need to credit those involved just for those versions, credits are sometimes longer on home release because of the distribution credits, DVDs are 96% as long because they run 4% faster than digital/cinema, you get different sites saying slightly different things depending on whether they round up, round down, or just round to the nearest minute, and other factors. It's all a bit messy. So I assumed that since there's a few seconds missing at the beginning, maybe it just sort of added up with maybe some extra credits and by some calculations it's 4 extra minutes, some it's 3 seconds.

      But, I've found out apparently there's one more extra scene of Mysterio getting a call from Fury later on. Hopefully it'll be in deleted scenes.


      Easy/Simple Timeline (LordDusty)

      LordDusty wrote: I've been following this sites timeline for several years now and I think you all have done a fantastic job of trying to organise all parts of the MCU into one logical timeline. It really can't be easy but I feel you have done the best job with what’s available.

      The only thing I feel is missing is one easy to follow timeline that gives only basic information and makes the best use of the effort you have put into arranging the films and TV shows around each other. At the moment the main Timeline page has a couple of overlapping series in columns and vague dates connecting them.

      The individual pages for each year are brilliantly detailed and are great for pinpointing when certain events take place but it takes a bit of work to establish when the films or tv episodes start and finish. It would be incredibly useful if there was a simple timeline that ordered all the films, TV shows, comics etc together with start and finish dates so that you could quickly and easily find where they all fit with each other. This would also be useful for finding where ones you haven't yet seen are located without coming across potential spoilers on the year pages.

      It wouldn't need much information just Film/Series title, Episode title, Series/Episode no., Start date, Finish date. Enough to see how they all fit together without being too complicated. And with all the new shows over the next few years, an easy to follow timeline would be very welcome. 

      Thank you so much for your compliments. It's always really encouraging and gratifying.

      I agree, it would be great to have one easy-to-follow list. It's kind of funny that that, being the most obvious thing to produce as a result of our work, is something we haven't got to sooner.

      It's not possible for the "Timeline" page due to the way policy dictates that page be laid out, but it's something I have in the works for a blog post. I'm currently filling out this blog listing all the canon content of the MCU and their details, including working out the midpoint scene of every piece (which is what I use to order by), and once I've done that, I will then be copying over that content to another blog, where I then replace the columns with timeline dates (such as start date and finish date as you say, as well as midpoint date) and turn it into a single list of a watch/read timeline order. However, I won't be able to do this for a little while.

      In the meantime, I do have this IMDb list for the order of live-action instalments. The only thing is I haven't updated it for a few months, due to complications concerning the exact Ant-Man and the Wasp and Infinity War placements, and then when those were starting to get more nailed down, the complications concerning Jessica Jones: Season 3. And also, there's some small gaps in the list now, because I used "Untitled Marvel Project (2020)" from IMDb as a stand-in for all the canon YouTube tie-in videos and things, assuming that the page would just get renamed when that project was announced so I could just go through and replace each one easily, but instead when it was announced as Eternals the "Untitled Marvel Project (2020)" page just got deleted, so all the tie-in videos have disappeared from my list, and I haven't got around to replacing and rewriting them yet. However, I will be updating the IMDb list in the next few weeks, so hopefully it should still be somewhat helpful from then until I get around to that full watch/read order blog.

        Loading editor
    • LordDusty, this might also be something similar to what you are looking for. This is a timeline I am making (still in progress) that attempts to place everything in exact chronological order, including flashbacks, with time stamps included. It is based on this wiki's timeline. I think some other users have similar timelines.

        Loading editor
    • heres a calander i did of 2016 of this timline. ive done the other years aswell

        Loading editor
    • I've been thinking, when What If... comes out, will each episode be treated as an alternate timeline and placed on the timeline pages? We already have the alternate timeline from AoS Season 6 on there. Also, hypothetically, if, say, Tom Hardy's Venom crossed over into the MCU through an interdimensional portal, or some other character in an alternate reality, would the events of that movie like the Venom movie be placed on the timeline pages as well?

        Loading editor
    • CirUmeUela wrote: I've been thinking, when What If... comes out, will each episode be treated as an alternate timeline and placed on the timeline pages? We already have the alternate timeline from AoS Season 6 on there. Also, hypothetically, if, say, Tom Hardy's Venom crossed over into the MCU through an interdimensional portal, or some other character in an alternate reality, would the events of that movie like the Venom movie be placed on the timeline pages as well?

      Yeah, since it's in PHASE 4 it's probably canon within the Marvel Cinematic Universe side of the multiverse. I'm pretty sure Sony wanted their Sony's Universe of Marvel Characters to be Marvel Cinematic Universe adjacent. Now that they have Spider-Man, they've achieved that, meaning they have no reason to crossover through a portal, so we don't have to worry about that. If it did happen, yes we would.

        Loading editor
    • CirUmeUela, what alternate universe had AoSS6?

      ProBot1227, sorry, but Sony movies are non canon.

        Loading editor
    • I never said they were.

      ProBot1227 wrote: so we *don't have to worry about that*. *If* it did happen, yes we would.

        Loading editor
    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:

      CirUmeUela wrote:
      The book Cosmic Quest Volume #2: Aftermath can definitely not be canon now. It has Erick Selvig surviving the snap but there is an image of Selvig in Endgame showing him as one of the victims of the snap. I just recently realized this since Endgame came out on digital.

      We don't see him confirmed as Snapped, we see him confirmed as missing a mere three weeks after the Snap. Ant-Man was missing for five years and was never Snapped.

      Plus, Dark World establishes that Selvig is good at going off the grid, only being found because of when he went crazy at Stonehenge.

      Yeah, but a lot of sites say he was snapped, even the Marvel Database, which I visited a few days ago.

        Loading editor
    • CirUmeUela wrote: I've been thinking, when What If... comes out, will each episode be treated as an alternate timeline and placed on the timeline pages? We already have the alternate timeline from AoS Season 6 on there. Also, hypothetically, if, say, Tom Hardy's Venom crossed over into the MCU through an interdimensional portal, or some other character in an alternate reality, would the events of that movie like the Venom movie be placed on the timeline pages as well?

      Most likely.

        Loading editor
    • Jazz2405 wrote: heres a calander i did of 2016 of this timline. ive done the other years aswell

      Can you post the other years here too?

        Loading editor
    • Anyways, how did Loki create another timeline with the Teserract? Are Infinity Stones capable of creating alternative universes/timelines?

        Loading editor
    • Marvelus, I'm referring to the alternate future where Earth is destroyed and they go to 2091, it's listed as the original timeline on the wiki

        Loading editor
    • Chimadino wrote:

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:

      CirUmeUela wrote:
      The book Cosmic Quest Volume #2: Aftermath can definitely not be canon now. It has Erick Selvig surviving the snap but there is an image of Selvig in Endgame showing him as one of the victims of the snap. I just recently realized this since Endgame came out on digital.
      We don't see him confirmed as Snapped, we see him confirmed as missing a mere three weeks after the Snap. Ant-Man was missing for five years and was never Snapped.

      Plus, Dark World establishes that Selvig is good at going off the grid, only being found because of when he went crazy at Stonehenge.

      Yeah, but a lot of sites say he was snapped, even the Marvel Database, which I visited a few days ago.

      Yes, and Marvel Database can be edited by anyone, just like this site. Not everyone reads the tie-in materials because most don't think they're important, but they are for exactly these kinds of revelations.

        Loading editor
    • BEJT, that blog table as a timeline would be really useful, thank you. 

      CirUmeUela, I've been using this wiki as well to put together my own timeline. As I said it can be quite tough sometimes to find exact dates of individual episodes and particular scenes, especially if differents shows/films overlap date wise. It's particularly difficult when I haven't yet seen certain shows. For example not having Netflix and the DVD releases having dried up sometime last summer has put me back quite a bit, and still wanting a full timeline but not wanting to spoil too much for myself can be quite difficult looking on here. 

        Loading editor
    • CirUmeUela wrote: Marvelus, I'm referring to the alternate future where Earth is destroyed and they go to 2091, it's listed as the original timeline on the wiki

      Oh, is because in your OM you wrote "alternate timeline seen in AoS*6*"

        Loading editor
    • Oh yes, I meant Season 5, whoops

        Loading editor
    • Chimadino wrote:

      Jazz2405 wrote: heres a calander i did of 2016 of this timline. ive done the other years aswell

      Can you post the other years here too?

      https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wD-LT7Srg4Gu5TQAHUOgmfxGBhSJm8my?usp=sharing here you are Chimadino help yourself.

        Loading editor
    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
      Chimadino wrote:

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:


      CirUmeUela wrote:
      The book Cosmic Quest Volume #2: Aftermath can definitely not be canon now. It has Erick Selvig surviving the snap but there is an image of Selvig in Endgame showing him as one of the victims of the snap. I just recently realized this since Endgame came out on digital.
      We don't see him confirmed as Snapped, we see him confirmed as missing a mere three weeks after the Snap. Ant-Man was missing for five years and was never Snapped.

      Plus, Dark World establishes that Selvig is good at going off the grid, only being found because of when he went crazy at Stonehenge.

      Yeah, but a lot of sites say he was snapped, even the Marvel Database, which I visited a few days ago.
      Yes, and Marvel Database can be edited by anyone, just like this site. Not everyone reads the tie-in materials because most don't think they're important, but they are for exactly these kinds of revelations.

      A ton of sites say he was snapped, even offical sites.

        Loading editor
    • Which official sites?

        Loading editor
    • Even official sites can be incorrect. Marvel.com directly states in MCU Odin's biography that Frigga is Hela's mother. When I added it and cited it to the appropriate pages, the information was removed.

      So official sites saying Selvig was snapped only makes this subject more confusing, they certainly don't give a conclusive answer. And I would definitely like to see which official sites have mentioned this.

        Loading editor
    • Different Easy/Simple Timelines (CirUmeUela, Jazz2405, Chimadino, LordDusty)

      CirUmeUela wrote: LordDusty, this might also be something similar to what you are looking for. This is a timeline I am making (still in progress) that attempts to place everything in exact chronological order, including flashbacks, with time stamps included. It is based on this wiki's timeline. I think some other users have similar timelines.

      Keep up the good work, CirUmeUela. Good to take a look at that project again.

      Jazz2405 wrote: heres a calander i did of 2016 of this timline. ive done the other years aswell

      Chimadino wrote: Can you post the other years here too?

      The image has unfortunately been taken down, as it is not from any Marvel media, so counts as the same sort of thing as fan art. Jazz2405 will have to just stick to links.

      LordDusty wrote: BEJT, that blog table as a timeline would be really useful, thank you. 

      CirUmeUela, I've been using this wiki as well to put together my own timeline. As I said it can be quite tough sometimes to find exact dates of individual episodes and particular scenes, especially if differents shows/films overlap date wise. It's particularly difficult when I haven't yet seen certain shows. For example not having Netflix and the DVD releases having dried up sometime last summer has put me back quite a bit, and still wanting a full timeline but not wanting to spoil too much for myself can be quite difficult looking on here. 

      I'll get to it soon-ish, but not in the next couple of months I imagine. Will try to update my IMDb list fairly soon though, sounds like it's the kind of thing which might help you.

      Jazz2405 wrote: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wD-LT7Srg4Gu5TQAHUOgmfxGBhSJm8my?usp=sharing here you are Chimadino help yourself.

      Great work Jazz2405, and thank you for trusting our work.


      What If...? and Alternate Timelines/Universes (CirUmeUela, ProBot1227, Marvelus, ProBot1227, Chimadino)

      CirUmeUela wrote: I've been thinking, when What If... comes out, will each episode be treated as an alternate timeline and placed on the timeline pages? We already have the alternate timeline from AoS Season 6 on there. Also, hypothetically, if, say, Tom Hardy's Venom crossed over into the MCU through an interdimensional portal, or some other character in an alternate reality, would the events of that movie like the Venom movie be placed on the timeline pages as well?

      I'm not worrying about What If...? now, because we don't know exactly how it will be handled. I'm sure the events will indeed be placed somewhere on timeline pages, but whether it's in columns or their own pages or whatever, we'll see. My general approach with the current divergent timelines (though those are time travel related splits in the universe rather than just hypothetical other similar universes) is that if there's just a small-ish chunk of events, it can go side-by-side in columns on the normal page, but if you get into whole separate years (like 2091-2091 for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.) of that timeline it can have its own page, like the awaiting-rename 2091 page supposed to cover 2019-2091 of that timeline. But yeah, we'll see, and we'll see how the wiki chooses to handle these things in general.

      A Venom crossover set in the MCU is highly unlikely. I was scared before that it might happen without Marvel Studios wanting it, through Sony using Tom Holland in their film just because they own him. But now Spider-Man is out of the MCU, while it's likely he'll appear in some Sony's Universe of Marvel Characters films, they will be disconnected. Anyway, that's definitely a case of "cross that bridge when we come to it", and we'll likely never come to it.

      ProBot1227 wrote: Yeah, since it's in PHASE 4 it's probably canon within the Marvel Cinematic Universe side of the multiverse. I'm pretty sure Sony wanted their Sony's Universe of Marvel Characters to be Marvel Cinematic Universe adjacent. Now that they have Spider-Man, they've achieved that, meaning they have no reason to crossover through a portal, so we don't have to worry about that. If it did happen, yes we would.

      Before SDCC, the story with What If...? was that it would be called Marvel's What If...? (indicating not part of the phases) and be a non-canon set of stories, but obviously after SDCC it had become properly Phase Four and canon, just not canon to the main universe, which definitely reduced my excitement, because it makes it all so much messier and there's far too much multiverse stuff going on in Phase Four in my opinion. But yes, it's canon in the regard of the MCU's related universes.

      Marvelus wrote: CirUmeUela, what alternate universe had AoSS6?

      ProBot1227, sorry, but Sony movies are non canon.

      ProBot1227 wrote: I never said they were.

      Chimadino wrote: Most likely.

      Chimadino wrote: Anyways, how did Loki create another timeline with the Teserract? Are Infinity Stones capable of creating alternative universes/timelines?

      He didn't. He was already in an another timeline when he escaped with the Tesseract.

      The Infinity Stones create alternate timelines if you remove one from a timeline, but seemingly not just out of choice by wielding one (maybe the Time Stone, Mordo did say time manipulation can cause branch timelines).

      CirUmeUela wrote: Marvelus, I'm referring to the alternate future where Earth is destroyed and they go to 2091, it's listed as the original timeline on the wiki

      Marvelus wrote: Oh, is because in your OM you wrote "alternate timeline seen in AoS*6*"

      CirUmeUela wrote: Oh yes, I meant Season 5, whoops

      No worries. I think Marvelus was just worried about it being another case of people thinking Season 6 is in an alternate timeline because it doesn't address the Snap.


      Selvig (Chimadino, Edward Zachary Sunrose, TheVultureKnight)

      Chimadino wrote: Yeah, but a lot of sites say he was snapped, even the Marvel Database, which I visited a few days ago.

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Yes, and Marvel Database can be edited by anyone, just like this site. Not everyone reads the tie-in materials because most don't think they're important, but they are for exactly these kinds of revelations.

      Exactly.

      Chimadino wrote: A ton of sites say he was snapped, even offical sites.

      I know many news sites reported on it when the TV spot came out that showed him among those characters, most not aware of The Cosmic Quest Volume Two: Aftermath. What they are reporting is essentially "Avengers: Endgame implies Erik Selvig was killed in the Snap", something no one is disputing. They're not reporting "We have heard from Marvel Studios that Erik Selvig is among the characters killed in the Snap".

      If, when you say official sites, you are referring to something like an official biography on Marvel's website - that sort of level of authority - sure. But most of the sites I imagine you are referring to are news sites, who are reporting the Avengers: Endgame scene's content, not the deeper truth of the matter.

      TheVultureKnight wrote: Which official sites?

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Even official sites can be incorrect. Marvel.com directly states in MCU Odin's biography that Frigga is Hela's mother. When I added it and cited it to the appropriate pages, the information was removed.

      So official sites saying Selvig was snapped only makes this subject more confusing, they certainly don't give a conclusive answer. And I would definitely like to see which official sites have mentioned this.

      Right, wow, even Marvel.com can get it wrong, depending on who is writing the bios and might make an assumption that they don't realise is at all disputed. It might not even have crossed the writer's mind that Hela might not be Frigga's daughter, so they just put it on there because they thought it was fact from the content of the films. Someone might do a similar thing with Selvig, just not aware that it was in any way disputed. But still, if the source is something like Marvel.com, sure, it's an important factor. But pretty much anything less is not an official Marvel source, just a news site reporting that Avengers: Endgame implies he was killed.

      No response from Snider on Twitter, so I sent him the same thing but to his email, yesterday. Really hoping he responds.


      Eternals (additional)

      Forgot to mention, but at D23 Feige confirmed that Eternals indeed spans thousands of years, as well as that Sprite is 7000 years old, trapped in a 12-year-old body.

        Loading editor
    • thanks for the shout out and thanks for your hard work on this timeline. if you want to use the visual representation i created of your timline by all means please do. thankyou

        Loading editor
    • Users on this thread, please do weigh in.

      Outside of some minor bits and pieces, there are two important outstanding decisions that need to be made - the exact number of days that Runaways: Season 2 spans, and the placement in 2018 of Jessica Jones: Season 3.

      I am conflicted on both, but it's time to make a decision. So, I would like a vote from you guys over both topics to decide the way we will go.

      The Runaways: Season 2 problem is that there are two important lines about the day of the week, but they don't seem compatible. You would have to insert 5 unseen days in between the two parts of the season to make them compatible, but there are no real gaps between those two parts of the season, the only potential gaps having strong implications suggesting they are just the same day/day after (depending on the case), just not explicitly said to be. And there is wiggle room in the initial scene's dialogue, the Gert and Chase scene. However, it very much seems like it's Thursday in that scene, and there are some benefits to stretching the season out a little. This issue is not a major one, being a mere matter of days and not overlapping with anything else, but it's still important to finally nail down the exact dates.

      The Jessica Jones: Season 3 problem, I'm sure you're all aware, is a case of "the evidence strongly points to November-December 2018" vs. "the wider context would very strongly imply that it absolutely should not be later than May 2018".

      I am providing refreshers of the evidence for each option, which preferably you guys could take a quick look at before voting, as I know that when I reread these things it reminds me of tidbits I'd forgotten about and makes me remember how tight some of these decisions can be.

      So, here are the refreshers on each problem. If you could then vote, maybe with a brief explanation if you wish:
      With Runaways:

      • "The Gert and Chase scene is a Tuesday, don't force five extra days where there is hardly any gap possibility"
        • or
      • "The Gert and Chase scene is a Thursday, slot in five extra days despite the difficulty".


      And with Jessica Jones:

      • "Go with January-February as a compromise for the two biggest pieces of evidence, but ignoring pretty much all other evidence"
        • or
      • "Go with April-May as fitting a good amount of evidence, but completely ignoring the "6 months" line"
        • or
      • "Go with November-December as fitting the majority the evidence, but completely ignoring the Snap".


      The Runaways: Season 2 Problem

      Tuesday, December 26th

      • Episode 1 Minute 4ish to Minute 36ish.

      --At least next day, seemingly next day. 62.5% eliminated.--
      Has to be at least 4 days either way (due to other evidence pushing the season into properly kicking off in at least early January). Upped to an extra 5th day for stretched option, to get C4 to be a Thursday. It's a stretch either way, extra day doesn't change much.

      (A1/B1) Sunday, December 31st or Saturday, December 30th

      • Episode 1 Minute 36ish to Minute 42ish.
        • Tina has Graciela's obituary and they're only just discussing Graciela's death. 26th-A1/B1 50% eliminated.

      --Seemingly same day. 43.75% eliminated.--
      Has to be at least 6 days either way. Upped to an extra 7th and 8th days for stretched option, to get C4 to be a Thursday. It's a stretch either way, extra 2 days doesn't change much.

      (C1) Monday, January 8th or Saturday, January 6th

      • Episode 1 Minute 42ish to 47ish.
        • Seems to just be the morning after they held the ceremony for Graciela, but I guess it could be more. 26th-A1/B1 25% further eliminated (takes it up to 62.5%), A1/B1-C1 25% eliminated.

      (C2) Tuesday, January 9th or Sunday, January 7th

      • Episode 1 Minute 47ish to end.
        • Seemingly not long after A1 as Karolina texted Jonah then saying, "Meet soon?" A1/B1-C1 25% further eliminated (takes it up to 43.75%).
      • Episode 2 beginning to end.
      • Episode 3 beginning to Minute 2ish.

      (C3) Wednesday, January 10th or Monday, January 8th

      • Episode 3 Minute 2ish to end.
      • Episode 4 beginning to Minute 6ish.

      (C4) Thursday, January 11th or Tuesday, January 9th

      • Episode 4 Minute 6ish to end.
        • "It is starting to feel like it's all just Tuesday now. No wait, Wednesday. No wait, it is Tuesday." "Think it's actually Thursday..." "Ha, whatever..." Sounds like it's Thursday. There's a problem since what appears to be 8 days later and is definitely at least 7 days later is said to be "Wednesday", which doesn't work. We might have to revise this and assume that maybe it is actually Tuesday and Gert is joking.
        • Karolina has voicemails from Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and another one at the top that I can't read that might also just be Thursday, which would fit with this being Thursday.
      • Episode 5 beginning to Minute 13ish.

      (C5) Friday, January 12th or Wednesday, January 10th

      • Episode 5 Minute 13ish to end.
        • "Guess it's just one of those days." "To be fair, haven't they all been those kinds of days since we ran?" "I don't know, think there was one Thursday in there that was pretty normal." It sounds like there's been a few Thursdays. The stretched option would give three Thursdays, the non-stretched option only two.
      • Episode 6 beginning to Minute 11ish.

      (C6) Saturday, January 13th or Thursday, January 11th

      • Episode 6 Minute 11ish to end.

      (C7) Sunday, January 14th or Friday, January 12th

      • Episode 7 beginning to Minute 45ish.
        • "2 months ago, our biggest issue was that there were no vegan options in the cafeteria." Either way, it's not much more than a month since they found out about their parents, but the closer to 2 months (without going over) the better, so the stretched option fits a tiny bit better, but it's pretty much negligible.

      (C8) Monday, January 15th or Saturday, January 13th

      • Episode 7 Minute 45ish to end.

      --Seemingly at least next day, seemingly next day. 92.96875% eliminated.--
      As the 92.96875% represents, it's very, very unlikely that there's an extra day in here that's not shown. But with the stretched option, you would have to crowbar one in.

      (D1) Wednesday, January 17th or Sunday, January 14th

      • Episode 8 beginning to end.
        • PRIDE are celebrating after the events of C7 and planning their next moves, suggesting it's not long since C7. C8-D1 25% eliminated.
        • The group have changed clothes since the end of Episode 7 so it's presumably at least the next day. Gert says she heard Karolina and Nico fighting "earlier", suggesting it's not been more than 1 day though, but it's flexible. C8-D1 25% further eliminated (takes it up to 43.75%).
        • Frank is very worried about what he did on Day C7, implying it's shortly after. It's seemingly at least 2 days, but it really shouldn't be more. C8-D1 75% further eliminated (which takes it up to 85.9375%).
      • Episode 9 beginning to Minute 11ish.

      (D2) Thursday, January 18th or Monday, January 15th

      • Episode 9 Minute 11ish to Minute 37ish.

      --At least next day, seemingly next day. 87.5% eliminated.--
      As the 87.5% represents, it's very unlikely that there's an extra day in here that's not shown. But with the stretched option, you would have to crowbar one in.

      (E1) Saturday, January 20th or Tuesday, January 16th

      • Episode 9 Minute 37ish to Minute 41ish.
        • Livvie visiting the group is strongly implied to be the morning after what just happened. D2-E1 75% eliminated.

      Seemingly same day. 96.875% eliminated. This can be the same day, either way, without adding a near-impossible extra day. No need for me to include the evidence that makes this gap 96.875% eliminated on this cut-down, simplified refresher.

      (F1) Saturday, January 20th or Tuesday, January 16th

      • Episode 9 Minute 41ish to Minute 42ish.
        • Karolina says it's been a "long couple of days". It's seemingly been at least 4 days since the events of C7, which she is referring to, but "couple" has leniency. It can mean "2ish, going on 3" or even just be used incorrectly to mean "a few", but basically, this means it shouldn't be more than the 4 days. C8-D1 and D2-E1 (and E1-F1) 50% further eliminated (which takes them up to 92.96875% and 87.5% respectively).

      --Seemingly same day. 87.5% eliminated.--
      As the 87.5% represents, it's very unlikely that there's an extra night in here that's not shown. But with the stretched option, you would have to crowbar one in.

      (G1) Sunday, January 21st or Tuesday, January 16th

      • Episode 9 Minute 42ish to Minute 44ish.
        • Nico is in the same clothes as earlier, which would suggest it's the same day. F1-G1 50% eliminated.

      --Seemingly same day. 75% eliminated.-
      As the 75% represents, it's unlikely that there's an extra night in here and very unlikely there's two extra nights in here that are not shown. But with the stretched option, you would have to crowbar two in.

      (H1, Tuesday) Tuesday, January 23rd or Tuesday, January 16th

      • Episode 9 Minute 44ish to end.
        • Livvie is in the same clothes as earlier and A.W.O.L. is beginning his operation to find the teenagers, and there's no reason he would wait. E1-F1 and F1-G1 75% further eliminated (which takes them up to 96.875% and 87.5% respectively), G1-H1 75% eliminated.

      (H2, Wednesday) Wednesday, January 24th or Wednesday, January 17th

      • Episode 10 beginning to end.
        • It's "2 o'clock on a Wednesday". This is problematic because it's seemingly been 8 days (and definitely at least 7) since Gert says it was Thursday, and while there's a few potential gaps in between then and now, they're all 75 or more per cent eliminated. So we have a decision to make, either slip in gaps to add an extra 5 days, which is quite a stretch, or we assume that this is actually Wednesday and not Friday, so when Gert said it was Thursday, it was actually Tuesday - there's some slight wiggle room there because they were joking around a bit. Either way, we're basically going to have to use some slight wiggle room. First option is adding 5 days, second option is assuming Gert is joking and it is actually Tuesday.

      (H3, Thursday) Thursday, January 25th or Thursday, January 18th

      • Episode 11 beginning to Minute 38ish.
        • Leslie's pregnancy is revealed, and the further along she can be, the better.

      And from there until the end, it's all either one day or the same day, a week earlier, up to Sunday, January 28th or Sunday, January 21st for the end of the season.


      The Jessica Jones: Season 3 Problem

      Points only for approximation at weighting the pros and cons.

      Thursday, January 4-Sunday, February 4, 2018:

      • Pros:
        • Pre-Snap. 10 pts.
        • Fits with the comment about being pre-Snap unless otherwise noted, which was followed by saying that we'll continue to be in that place until Avengers 4, but could be interpreted as referring to any Marvel Television projects coming out now. 1 pt.
        • Fits with Mike Colter saying Luke Cage was Snapped, but him being present in the season, though it was admittedly a joke. 0.5 pts.
        • Fits with football games shown. 2 pts.
        • Spring-summer clothes being launched, which would be around January. 2.5 pts.
        • Fits with it being dark by 18:30 in Episode 8. 1.5 pts.
        • Fits three of the four weather recordings shown. 1 pt.
      • Eh, it'll do:
        • Fits about enough with being a year since Season 2. - 1 pt for being slightly off.
        • Doesn't entirely contradict the Mother's Day line. - 2.5 pts for not working particularly well though.
        • Doesn't fit one of the four weather recordings shown. 0 pts, fits the other three.
      • Cons:
        • Breaks Netflix chronological order. - 2.5 pts.
        • Doesn't work with "It's spring!" email. - 2.5 pts.
        • Doesn't fit with Boogeyman by Dead Posey playing in the bar, released August 2018. - 0.5 pts.
        • Doesn't fit with the pumpkin sticker or skeleton decorations. - 1.5 pts.
        • Doesn't really work with spring weather line, Trish would have to wait 6 + months to start tracking Brandt after he was released. - 2.5 pts.
        • Doesn't fit the January 22, 2018 magazine shown in Episode 2 shortly before the events of the season. - 0.5 pts.
        • Doesn't fit with there being daylight for over 15 hours in Episode 4. - 1 pt.
        • Doesn't fit with April 2001 being "18 years ago", it would be less than 17. - 4 pts.
        • Doesn't fit with "Wednesday 5" iCloud calendar. - 1.5 pts.
          • - 1.5 pts.


      Thursday, April 26-Sunday, May 27, 2018:

      • Pros:
        • Pre-Snap. 10 pts.
        • Fits with the comment about being pre-Snap unless otherwise noted, which was followed by saying that we'll continue to be in that place until Avengers 4, but could be interpreted as referring to any Marvel Television projects coming out now. 1 pt.
        • Fits with Mike Colter saying Luke Cage was Snapped, but him being present in the season, though it was admittedly a joke. 0.5 pts.
        • Keeps Netflix chronological order. 2.5 pts.
        • Works with "It's spring!" email. 2.5 pts.
        • Works with the spring weather line. 2.5 pts for being a bigger piece of evidence, but also not as much of a decider since it has more leniency.
        • Fits with January 2018 magazine shown in Episode 2 shortly before the events of the season. 0.5 pts.
        • Fits with there being daylight for over 15 hours in Episode 4. 1 pt.
        • Fits nicely as a year since Season 2. 1 pt, this is more of a bonus.
      • Eh, it'll do:
        • April 2001 being "18 years ago" isn't the end of the world, it's over 17. - 2 pts for not really working though.
        • Spring-summer clothes being launched, which would be late but doesn't not work. - 1 pt for being slightly off.
      • Cons:
        • Doesn't fit with Boogeyman by Dead Posey playing in the bar, released August 2018. - 0.5 pts.
        • Doesn't fit with football games shown. - 2 pts.
        • Doesn't fit with the pumpkin sticker or skeleton decorations. - 1.5 pts.
        • Doesn't fit with it being dark by 18:30 in Episode 8. - 1.5 pts.
        • Doesn't fit any of the weather recordings shown. - 1 pt.
        • Massively contradicts the Mother's Day line. - 9 pts.
        • Doesn't fit with "Wednesday 5" iCloud calendar. - 1.5 pts.
          • 1.5 pts.


      Thursday, November 8-Sunday, December 9, 2018:

      • Pros:
        • Keeps Netflix chronological order. 2.5 pts.
        • Fits with Boogeyman by Dead Posey playing in the bar, released August 2018. 0.5 pts.
        • Fits with football games shown. 2 pts.
        • Mostly fits with the pumpkin sticker and skeleton decorations. 1.5 pts.
        • Fits with January 2018 magazine shown in Episode 2 shortly before the events of the season. 0.5 pts.
        • Fits as best as any of these three options can with April 2001 being "18 years ago". 3 pts since still not ideal.
        • Fits with the Mother's Day line. 9 pts.
        • Fits with it being dark by 18:30 in Episode 8. 1.5 pts.
        • Fits with "Wednesday 5" iCloud calendar if the season spills into December. 1.5 pts.
        • Fits one weather recording shown. 0.5 pts.
      • Eh, it'll do:
        • Doesn't fit with the comment about being pre-Snap unless otherwise noted, but which was followed by saying that we'll continue to be in that place until Avengers 4, so can easily be discareded. 0 pts.
        • Doesn't work with the spring weather line, but you can just about push it that Trish only started tracking Brandt months after he was set free. - 2 pts for still not really working.
        • Fits well enough as a year since Season 2. - 1 pt for being slightly off.
        • Spring-summer clothes being launched, which would be early but doesn't not work. - 1 pt for being slightly off.
      • Cons:
        • Post-Snap, which just seems impossible. - 10 pts.
        • Doesn't fit with Mike Colter saying Luke Cage was Snapped, but him being present in the season, though it was admittedly a joke. - 0.5 pts.
        • Doesn't work with "It's spring!" email. - 2.5 pts.
        • Doesn't fit with there being daylight for over 15 hours in Episode 4. - 1 pt.
        • Doesn't fit three of the weather recordings shown. - 0.5 pts.
          • 4 pts.

      The difficulty is that the specific/hard evidence places it in November-December, so to place it in April-May would be ignoring the hard evidence, but the massive external factor of the Snap places it in in April-May, so to place it in November-December doesn't make sense given the wider context. November-December is much harder to believe, but April-May is much harder to justify.

      It just doesn't really work in April-May 2018, and yet it just cannot be post-Snap. If it weren't for the Snap, things would lean easily to November-December with just small contradictions. If it weren't for the Mother's Day line, things would lean enough towards May to justify some small contradictions.


      Users on this thread, please do weigh in.

        Loading editor
    • I say stretch Runaways out. Yes, from what we see everything seems to be compressed, but that could just be chalked up to the hectic nature of their lives. I think stretching it out also gives us more leeway in case they decide to reference unseen events or show flashbacks from this time period during Season 3.

      As for Jessica Jones, I would say go post-Snap with it and put it in November-December. We already have AoS 6 conclusively being post-Snap with no acknowledgement of it whatsoever, so trying to twist the timeline in order to preserve the sanctity of the Snap for Jessica Jones seems silly to me.

        Loading editor
    • Runaways S2, insert 5 days. The longer the better. As we might have some problems with S3 being set shortly after but present incongruencies due to the filming date.

      Jessica Jones S3: April-May 2018. It follows the typical Netflix order and works with Spring 2018. It is clearly not intended to be post Snap.

        Loading editor
    • I also think the 5 days should be inserted into Runaways S2, just because it's better to stretch the season as far as it can. It's 5 days less to account for if a time jump is needed.

      With Jessica Jones S3, usually I'd say November-December, but since it's the last season of the Netflix shows, and that I think that if they ever brought these characters back in some way, they'd probably treat all Netflix seasons as being pre-Snap, I vote for April-May. Mother's Day line still bothers me, but I think it's for the best, for now.

        Loading editor
    • Runaways S2: I also cast my vote for the 5 days. Fingers crossed for S3 being a slightly less a timeline mess.

      Jessica S3L I also say April-May. I've been pretty adamant about the one line bothering me but sometimes an exception has to be made to ignore one line for the greater good of the timeline.

        Loading editor
    • Runaways S2, I agree with inserting 5 days. It's better to stretch things out and I think that works narratively.

      Jessica Jones S3: April-May 2018. I know AoS Season 6 is post-snap I guess, but that doesn't mean Jessica Jones should be. It's iffy placing it there, but I think it's better than just assuming New York is exactly the same post-Snap.

      (By the way, I still have it as head-canon that AoS Season 6 is an alternate timeline because of their time travel stuff at the end of Season 5. I know there's no proof of this, but this for me fixes the problem of again, nobody mentioning the Snap at all in SHIELD. I think they might just reference it in Season 7 and then maybe, just maybe go back to the main MCU timeline once they realize they were in a different one.)

        Loading editor
    •  

      Jazz2405 wrote: heres a calander i did of 2016 of this timline. ive done the other years aswell

      Chimadino wrote: Can you post the other years here too?

      The image has unfortunately been taken down, as it is not from any Marvel media, so counts as the same sort of thing as fan art. Jazz2405 will have to just stick to links.

      Ok, I downloaded it anyway.

      Chimadino wrote: Anyways, how did Loki create another timeline with the Teserract? Are Infinity Stones capable of creating alternative universes/timelines?

      He didn't. He was already in an another timeline when he escaped with the Tesseract.

      The Infinity Stones create alternate timelines if you remove one from a timeline, but seemingly not just out of choice by wielding one (maybe the Time Stone, Mordo did say time manipulation can cause branch timelines).

      Thank you.


      Chimadino wrote: A ton of sites say he was snapped, even offical sites.

      I know many news sites reported on it when the TV spot came out that showed him among those characters, most not aware of The Cosmic Quest Volume Two: Aftermath. What they are reporting is essentially "Avengers: Endgame implies Erik Selvig was killed in the Snap", something no one is disputing. They're not reporting "We have heard from Marvel Studios that Erik Selvig is among the characters killed in the Snap".

      If, when you say official sites, you are referring to something like an official biography on Marvel's website - that sort of level of authority - sure. But most of the sites I imagine you are referring to are news sites, who are reporting the Avengers: Endgame scene's content, not the deeper truth of the matter.

      No, I wasn't referring to those. I only speculated, since most people say Selvig was snapped and I belive they got it from offical info.

        Loading editor
    • Runaways; Add 5 days.

      Jessica Jones; April-May, I believe it was an overexaggeration to point out it is not close to Mother's Day, rather than actually telling us what date it is.

        Loading editor
    • Runaways S2, I agree with inserting 5 days. 

      Jessica Jones S3: April-May 2018.

        Loading editor
    • Runaways season 2 add 5 days and jessica jones april-may 2018

        Loading editor
    • Vote on the Two Problems (Edward Zachary Sunrose, Marvelus, DaenerysTheMadKhal58, Mrmichaelt, CirUmeUela, Aricco, Ад12032016, Jazz2405)

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: I say stretch Runaways out. Yes, from what we see everything seems to be compressed, but that could just be chalked up to the hectic nature of their lives. I think stretching it out also gives us more leeway in case they decide to reference unseen events or show flashbacks from this time period during Season 3.

      As for Jessica Jones, I would say go post-Snap with it and put it in November-December. We already have AoS 6 conclusively being post-Snap with no acknowledgement of it whatsoever, so trying to twist the timeline in order to preserve the sanctity of the Snap for Jessica Jones seems silly to me.

      Runaways: Season 2, natural 0 : 1 stretch.

      Jessica Jones: Season 3, spring 0 : 1 autumn/fall.

      Marvelus wrote: Runaways S2, insert 5 days. The longer the better. As we might have some problems with S3 being set shortly after but present incongruencies due to the filming date.

      Jessica Jones S3: April-May 2018. It follows the typical Netflix order and works with Spring 2018. It is clearly not intended to be post Snap.

      Runaways: Season 2, natural 0 : 2 stretch.

      Jessica Jones: Season 3, spring 1 : 1 autumn/fall.

      DaenerysTheMadKhal58 wrote: I also think the 5 days should be inserted into Runaways S2, just because it's better to stretch the season as far as it can. It's 5 days less to account for if a time jump is needed.

      With Jessica Jones S3, usually I'd say November-December, but since it's the last season of the Netflix shows, and that I think that if they ever brought these characters back in some way, they'd probably treat all Netflix seasons as being pre-Snap, I vote for April-May. Mother's Day line still bothers me, but I think it's for the best, for now.

      Runaways: Season 2, natural 0 : 3 stretch.

      Jessica Jones: Season 3, spring 2 : 1 autumn/fall.

      Mrmichaelt wrote: Runaways S2: I also cast my vote for the 5 days. Fingers crossed for S3 being a slightly less a timeline mess.

      Jessica S3L I also say April-May. I've been pretty adamant about the one line bothering me but sometimes an exception has to be made to ignore one line for the greater good of the timeline.

      Runaways: Season 2, natural 0 : 4 stretch.

      Jessica Jones: Season 3, spring 3 : 1 autumn/fall.

      CirUmeUela wrote: Runaways S2, I agree with inserting 5 days. It's better to stretch things out and I think that works narratively.

      Jessica Jones S3: April-May 2018. I know AoS Season 6 is post-snap I guess, but that doesn't mean Jessica Jones should be. It's iffy placing it there, but I think it's better than just assuming New York is exactly the same post-Snap.

      Runaways: Season 2, natural 0 : 5 stretch.

      Jessica Jones: Season 3, spring 4 : 1 autumn/fall.

      Aricco wrote: Runaways; Add 5 days.

      Jessica Jones; April-May, I believe it was an overexaggeration to point out it is not close to Mother's Day, rather than actually telling us what date it is.

      Runaways: Season 2, natural 0 : 6 stretch.

      Jessica Jones: Season 3, spring 5 : 1 autumn/fall.

      Ад12032016 wrote: Runaways S2, I agree with inserting 5 days. 

      Jessica Jones S3: April-May 2018.

      Runaways: Season 2, natural 0 : 7 stretch.

      Jessica Jones: Season 3, spring 6 : 1 autumn/fall.

      Jazz2405 wrote: Runaways season 2 add 5 days and jessica jones april-may 2018

      Runaways: Season 2, natural 0 : 8 stretch.

      Jessica Jones: Season 3, spring 7 : 1 autumn/fall. (0 votes for early 2018.)

      Thank you for the input, everyone. It's clear what the results are. I had a feeling both would go those ways, but it was still good to get a proper vote, and I know I was only about 45 : 55 on the Runaways problem and exactly 50 : 50 on the Jessica Jones problem.

      Particular thanks to Edward Zachary Sunrose because it was nice to have the different opinion on Jessica Jones, because I do think personally that it is a very close call, more than the vote would suggest.

      Just checking with Runaways that people were aware that the main reason there was a debate was the fact that the Chase and Gert scene has flexibility. If they had explicitly said Thursday, there would be no question, but there's some flexibility for it to be Tuesday from the dialogue, which the non-stretched option would require (or it might even imply it's Tuesday and I've misread the scene).

      "It is starting to feel like it's all just Tuesday now. No wait, Wednesday. No wait, it is Tuesday." "Think it's actually Thursday..." "Ha, whatever..."

      If anyone wasn't aware of that and that changes their opinion, let me know, but I'm assuming with the unanimous vote currently that, if it even changes anyone's opinion, it wouldn't be four people and change things. But still, mention it if it does. No need to mention if it doesn't.

      I'll put the Runaways events onto the 2018 page in the coming days (the bold events, not the full write-ups, which Marvelus has done but haven't been checked yet), and then Jessica Jones soon after, as well as working out the watch order in relation to The Punisher: Season 2.


      Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Season 6 Alternate Timeline (CirUmeUela)

      CirUmeUela wrote: (By the way, I still have it as head-canon that AoS Season 6 is an alternate timeline because of their time travel stuff at the end of Season 5. I know there's no proof of this, but this for me fixes the problem of again, nobody mentioning the Snap at all in SHIELD. I think they might just reference it in Season 7 and then maybe, just maybe go back to the main MCU timeline once they realize they were in a different one.)

      It's not possible, unless they add in a jump in time we didn't know about in 2018.


      Selvig (Chimadino)

      Chimadino wrote: No, I wasn't referring to those. I only speculated, since most people say Selvig was snapped and I belive they got it from offical info.

      Yes, many people know the official fact that Avengers: Endgame implies Selvig was killed. Many people are also not aware that anything would contradict that. But there is something: the novel contradicts it, just most people don't know about the novel. They haven't got official info that he was killed straight from Marvel.


      Black Widow BMW (additional)

      I brought this up before, how a 2017 BMW was identified as being a part of Black Widow, and how that doesn't quite seem to align with the implied 2016 setting. Just thought I'd provide a quick update to that because I found the exact release month: the 2017 BMW 5 Series Touring Wagon was released in June 2017 (1, 2), so yeah, definitely could be a problem considering Natasha has short blonde hair and is with Steve and Sam within "weeks"/"months" of Civil War according to comics and novels, but also just generally because I don't imagine the film will present itself as a whole year after Civil War. We'll see.


      Captain America "106" (additional)

      I'm sure many of you are aware, but a video was released where a VFX woman said, at 5:15-6:53, "What would a super soldier look like if he had aged 106 years?" and "to give him that 106-year-old super soldier look".

      Steve was 9713 days old when he went into the ice, and lived a further 4406 days, roughly, from 2011 to 2023. This would make him approximately 14,119 days old when he went back, 38.656.

      The former comment would suggest one of four things:

      1. That Steve is biologically 106 years old, having aged 106 years in his total lifetime. This would mean that approximately 67.844 years have passed for Steve. This would require him to return to 1955 going by the Markus and McFeely explanation, which cannot be the case, with a) them saying 1948 and b) Peggy getting married no later than 1953, and them saying that he was that husband. So, this provides info for the dates just on the Russo side.
      2. That Steve has aged 106 years over his lifetime, however long that has been, potentially ageing slower. Compatible for either side.
      3. That Steve has aged 106 years since becoming a super soldier. 594 days passed between him becoming a super soldier and going into the ice, plus the 4406 days in the present, 4512 days/12.353 years. This would mean roughly 93.647 years to have passed for Steve. This would require him to return to 1930 going by the Markus and McFeely explanation, which cannot be the case. So, this provides info for the dates just on the Russo side.
      4. That 106 years have passed for Steve since he left. This would require him to return to 1917 going by the Markus and McFeely explanation, which cannot be the case. So, this provides info for the dates just on the Russo side.

      The second comment would then suggest that they mean either 1 or 2. He's either 106 years old, or meant to have the "106-year-old super soldier look" and not necessarily be 106. Since "super soldier" is already a note in this comment, like she's saying "he's supposed to have the look not necessarily of a normal 106-year-old, but a 106-year-old who was a super soldier so is still doing physically a little better than most", it seems to be number 1. Not that he's supposed to have an "106-year-old look" and happen to be a super soldier. Plus there's no evidence in the MCU of the super soldier serum slowing ageing (I personally don't think it does in the MCU).

      So, all that said, it would seem we have some Russo dates. Ignore the incorrect reporting on this - as established, Steve was 38.656, so to be 106 (roughly 106.5), he would have had to have lived about 67.844 years in the alternate timeline. The general assumption, therefore, is that if Peggy died around the same time (mid-2016), he has come back over soon after that (doesn't seem particularly like he's grieving, but hey). This would mean (I've seen a lot of miscalculations reported) that he likely arrived around August 1948.

      So, it would seem that we do have a rough date now (can work out the exacts later), because despite their disagreements, it would seem that both sides of the argument agree on 1948. Markus and McFeely specifically say 1948, and what the Russos seem to have told the VFX team indirectly implies 1948. And around August, specifically.

      It's not clear how authoritative this comment is, if they were just told "Make him look about 106ish" or if it was a big, calculated number over with the Russos/Marvel. And I'm not sending this to reignite the debate. This is just one of the endless additions to the debate, still being added to my blog compiling it all, this time on the Russo side. Just sending it because of the dates it implies, and to make sure you all know the correct dates rather than the miscalculated dates from articles.

      So, Steve is 113 by the Markus and McFeely explanation, 106 by the Russo one. At least we are down to just two options over Steve's age now, rather than the infinite possibilites before that came with the Russo explanation.


      Luke Cage Past Dates (additional)

      Just letting you know I've completed my rewrite of the Luke Cage Past Dates blog, which you can find the results for here. I note at the top of the page that I'm still learning and facing new challenges, so if I were to do it again right now, having learned from doing this blog just these past weeks, I would do it better again. It's all part of the process as I learn the best way to approach this stuff, ahead of my big project compiling everything. But yeah, the results are pretty solid, and I've spent a very long time writing every Luke Cage: Season 2 past date up, plus some corrections following Season 2 to past dates from Season 1, like the Step in the Arena flashbacks. Will be getting all of that up shortly. Then back to write-ups, a couple a day for the rest of the month.

        Loading editor
    • Hey all! So with the decision seemingly made on JJ S3, where do that, Punisher S2, and the AoS/Wasp/Infinity War saga fall in with each other? Any overlap between them? (I've already mixed together the latter based on all your evidence, just wondering how to work in Punisher and Jessica now)

        Loading editor
    • BEJT, fair enough about AoS Season 6 not being an alternate timeline. But they have said they will mention the snap, not sure if they said that for season 6 or 7 though. Loeb also said, as we know, that season 6 was before the snap which we agree makes zero sense. So if season 6 is not in an alternate timeline, then that means they might show the snap after season 6's events, which would be stupid.

        Loading editor
    • CirUmeUela wrote:
      BEJT, fair enough about AoS Season 6 not being an alternate timeline. But they have said they will mention the snap, not sure if they said that for season 6 or 7 though. Loeb also said, as we know, that season 6 was before the snap which we agree makes zero sense. So if season 6 is not in an alternate timeline, then that means they might show the snap after season 6's events, which would be stupid.

      They said at Comic Con that the Snap would be addressed in 6x13... Which it wasn't.

        Loading editor
    • Pahaps they think that time travel equals addressing, which it doesn't and in fact does the opposite. Maybe they're going to over complicate the timeline by trying to fix the snap?

        Loading editor
    • Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: They said at Comic Con that the Snap would be addressed in 6x13... Which it wasn't.

      I still think Jed was being sarcastic when he said that in the interview, he was not confirming anything, imo. Then Bell and Jed even say they're not talking about the Snap in season 6 because they don't know when it airs and don't want to spoil it.
        Loading editor
    • Spring 2018 Overlap (Nox23)

      Nox23 wrote: Hey all! So with the decision seemingly made on JJ S3, where do that, Punisher S2, and the AoS/Wasp/Infinity War saga fall in with each other? Any overlap between them? (I've already mixed together the latter based on all your evidence, just wondering how to work in Punisher and Jessica now)

      I'll be working that out when I put the events in Jessica Jones: Season 3 on the 2018 page. I won't be able to work out the scene-by-scene order of the overlaps until the full write-ups of The Punisher: Season 2 and Jessica Jones: Season 3 go up, but I can give you a general watch order soon and which bits of which episodes occur on the same days - just not how they inter-weave.

      The general idea is something along the lines of, just looking at the 2018 page right now and estimating from memory how the The Punisher episodes play out and how Jessica Jones fits in:

      • Roughly The Punisher: 2,1-3/roughly Jessica Jones: 3,1-3
      • Ant-Man and the Wasp
      • Roughly The Punisher: 2,4-13/roughly Jessica Jones: 3,4-8
      • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: 5,14-18/roughly Jessica Jones: 3,9-11
      • Roughly Jessica Jones: 3,12-13
      • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: 5,19-21
      • Avengers: Infinity War
      • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: 5,22

      But yeah, proper order soon.


      Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Snap (CirUmeUela, Edward Zachary Sunrose, ProBot1227, Mrmichaelt)

      CirUmeUela wrote: BEJT, fair enough about AoS Season 6 not being an alternate timeline. But they have said they will mention the snap, not sure if they said that for season 6 or 7 though. Loeb also said, as we know, that season 6 was before the snap which we agree makes zero sense. So if season 6 is not in an alternate timeline, then that means they might show the snap after season 6's events, which would be stupid.

      They said they'd address it. Honestly, I think they might just be referring to the fact that they have got away from present day now, which isn't really addressing it but whatever.

      There was a small concern that they would show the Snap at the end of Season 6, but thankfully, they didn't. And I think they'll be away from present day until probably the end of Season 7, and they won't do the Snap at the end of the show. So I think we're pretty much safe now, unless they were to return to present day and go, "Wait, what happened while we were gone?!" or something, but that would also involve more time travel shenanigans which could explain it depending on how it's handled - whatever, we'll see. But needn't worry right now.

      Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: They said at Comic Con that the Snap would be addressed in 6x13... Which it wasn't.

      I thought they just said it would be addressed at some point. But if it was 6,13, then yeah, they probably just meant escaping the problem of present day, which isn't really addressing anything.

      ProBot1227 wrote: Pahaps they think that time travel equals addressing, which it doesn't and in fact does the opposite. Maybe they're going to over complicate the timeline by trying to fix the snap?

      Yeah exactly, it's possible they meant that even though it's not addressing anything.

      I don't think the Snap will be a plot point, trying to fix it is a waste of time for the show since we know they have nothing to do with fixing it in the end, so it would be aimless.

      Mrmichaelt wrote: I still think Jed was being sarcastic when he said that in the interview, he was not confirming anything, imo. Then Bell and Jed even say they're not talking about the Snap in season 6 because they don't know when it airs and don't want to spoil it.

      I think he was joking at least when he said that anyone could disappear at any time.


      Marvel's Avengers: Infinity War: The Cosmic Quest Volume Two: Aftermath Notes (additional)

      Again, I've gone into quite a lot of detail, meaning I can just refer back to here instead of having to reread parts of the book, and hopefully this can help all you guys so you can know everything that happens without having to read the book. And I also am making sure, even if it's not particularly relevant, to include every referenced character, item, location, whatever else, to help with editing the wiki pages related to the novels if I get around to that to help those parts of the wiki, since the information on the books is sparse on the wiki as people haven't read them.

      Marvel's Avengers: Infinity War: The Cosmic Quest Volume Two: Aftermath notes.

      • "Prologue": A description of the decimation event. Introduces a scientist called Erik, once head of Theoretical Astrophysics at Culver University, whose life was changed when Thor Odinson arrived on Earth, and later when Loki used the Scepter to control his mind. He had got back to normal, but now, after the decimation event, struggles with his sanity again when he doesn't have answers.
      • "Chapter 1": Darcy shows up at Seafarer Motor Inn, New Mexico, having been called by Selvig in the night to meet him, sounding broken. Darcy waits outside, Erik not answering. She calls inside, saying she swears to "God, Odin, and whoever else is up there" that he's wearing clothes, and mutters that she bets Pepper Potts never had to deal with things like this. She strolls to a rail overlooking the grounds, where there are various people, including the owner, Ken, and a young boy, about 12, with tight black cornrows. She starts a conversation with the boy, who reveals he's called Felix and his parents are from Ethiopia, but were killed in the decimation event. He says people are turning up at the Seafarer every day to check if their loved ones have returned. Erik bursts out of his room and is surprised to see Darcy, already having forgotten calling her. Ken calls Felix to scrub toilets, saying he has to do it if he wants to stay, and Selvig explains Felix has take a shine to him. He takes Darcy into his room, where she finds everything is a smelly, horrible mess. Selvig, nonetheless, is happy because he thinks the pieces are coming together. He says he came back here, Puente Antiguo, due to it being the first sighting of an Einstein-Rosen bridge. Selvig says it all started here, the recent years' events, such as the events with the Tesseract, the Aether, and Loki's Scepter, which all led up to the decimation event. He says they need to find Jane, but Darcy says they've been through this, her phone is dead, her emails bounce back. He insists, though, that they will find her and get her help, and bring everyone back. Felix turns up at the door and says now is the time to act, they need to go. Darcy says Erik just needs a vacation, suggesting a condo her great-aunt has in Florida, but Selvig is determined. He gets dressed and says they need to get information from his old colleagues to help them locate Jane, convincing Darcy to come along. She doesn't want Felix, but he says otherwise he'll end up snatched by Child Protective Services soon and put into foster care. They head to Darcy's rusty red hatchback, the Mary Jackson. Ken asks where they think they're going without paying, but Erik assures he will transfer money soon and they leave.
          • p3 - "Selvig called her in the middle of the night."
          • p4 - Darcy drove "all night" to New Mexico.
          • p5 - "Years earlier, she'd applied as a long shot to a summer internship. The next thing she knew, she was working with Selvig and Doctor Jane Foster, learning how to make a good cup of coffee and doge entities from other dimensions."
          • p7 - Darcy thinks the boy (Felix) looks "around twelve years old".
          • p9 - Felix's parents moved to America "about twenty years ago", and he "was born about eight years after that".
        • p9 - It's implied to be a little while since the Snap, maybe a good few months.
          • Erik specifically called at "three AM" last night.
        • p13 - Erik has been living in isolation and with a complete mess of a lifestyle following the Snap, without contact outside of Felix. It's very possible he was "missing" for a while after the Snap.
        • p14 - "This location has significance. It has meaning. Remember when we first met? What a day that turned out to be, eh?" This would suggest they had just met in the events of Thor, implying, from Darcy saying she worked on a summer internship that Thor takes place in early summer, which fits.
          • p16 - ""The fantastic events that have occurred over the last few years. The Tesseract, the Aether, Loki's Scepter.""
        • p17 - Jane's post-Snap status is unknown, without her phone on or receiving emails. It's very possible that Selvig, not answering anything in his crazed state post-Snap, was also considered "unknown, likely killed" for a few weeks.
          • p20 - When Felix asks if Selvig is "like, eighty years old", he says he's actually "a fit sixty-five", so assuming this is 2018, he would've been born in 1952-1953.
          • p21 - Selvig has "shared ideas and theories with" many quirky scientists "over the years".
          • p23 - Felix is "almost thirteen", so if this is 2018, he was born in 2005 and his parents arrived around 1997, he was rounding with "about twenty years ago".
            • p24 - Mary Jackson exists in the MCU.
      • "Chapter 2": The group arrive in Lil' Odessa, Texas, with stores Video Gulch, Illusia's Hair Salon, and Tank Top City, and retail outlet Dollar Holler. Erik leads them into Dollar Holler and finds a tiny woman in a pink blouse, with blonde curls and thin reading glasses around her neck, called Zelda. He says he's looking for Alpha Tango 718. Zelda is confused and Darcy claims he's her confused grandpa, but he insists he's not, being "childless". Felix needs the toilet, but it's for paying customers only, so Darcy buys a $1 key chain. Erik then goes to the toilet after, but Zelda is suspicious. Felix explains he's a top astrophysicist who worked for NASA and S.HI.E.L.D. and knows the Avengers, and Zelda realises he's the man who ran around Stonehenge naked. She says some people think the Avengers were involved in the people turning to dust, and that she hopes Scarlet Witch is OK, since her niece "just thinks she's magical", and asking if they know Black Widow. Darcy is given a box of test tube key chains in return for answering, and tells Zelda Black Widow is her best friend. Felix excitedly tells them about Hank Pym and his Pym Particles, then mentions the Water of Sight, which Zelda has vaguely heard of, thinking it's a fancy spa. Felix reveals Erik has said the Water of Sight is the key to everything. They hear shattering lass in the bathroom, and when they check, Selvig is stuck having tried to get through the window. He insists there's been a mistake as Zelda tosses him out and closes the shop. Erik keeps saying "She was supposed to be here", when a woman sticks her head out of a store across the street and calls them over. He realises he got the wrong place, and makes his way over.
            • p26 - It's been a "six-hour road trip".
            • p28 - Again, "I just drove six hours".
            • p30 - Mercury exists in the MCU.
        • p33 - Zelda says she practices judo "on the weekends", implying it's currently a weekday.
      • "Chapter 3": The group go over to the woman, Anjelica Tan, a tall woman with a shaved head, whom Selvig had previously hired for Project P.E.G.A.S.U.S.. She is frustrated with him for jeopardising her operation with his foolishness, and invites them into her darkened lair. Felix introduces himself as Felix Desta, which she recognises as Ethiopian. He nods and she says it's beautiful and borders Wakanda, noting that all sorts of information is coming out of Wakanda, and that she has a vibranium Kimoyo Bead somewhere but she's not sure where, and can't reveal how she got it. She tells Darcy Erik has told her stories about her and how she's the glue of the group. She pulls a lever and the room begins shifting, wooden panels flipping over to silver steel and the ceiling tiles folding away to reveal rods and pistons, and they find that underneath them is an underground storage facility, which Tan explains are mostly S.H.I.E.L.D. secrets. Felix points out that S.H.I.E.L.D.'s database was exposed a while back, but she says she has things that never made it onto the database - paper documents from before things went digital, which S.H.I.E.L.D. didn't have space for on the Helicarrier, as well as tech items, pointing out it's better to take them off the grid than have them stolen by "some idiot with mechanical wings". Anjelica says she doesn't usually get lonely and watches a lot of online Saucy Sara cooking tutorials. She is not happy that Selvig has never mentioned her, and reveals a prosthetic leg that she got after Loki's attack on Project P.E.G.A.S.U.S.. Anjelica walks off with Selvig to talk, and jokes that she definitely doesn't have a web of cloaked satellites around the planet, as that would be forbidden by a S.H.I.E.L.D. document she signed, and that those satellites picked up unidentifiable readings before erasing themselves, so she's at a loss. He says they're looking for Jane, but Anjelica says she could be in Aruba, Jamaica, anywhere - she has no idea, but she has Jane's records and data in a box and Selvig is one of two people granted access, albeit limited for him. He's disappointed, however, that her journal is missing, as he thinks the Aether from their time in London could be linked to the decimation event. Anjelica reveals she does have a flash drive of Jane's video diaries, which she isn't really supposed to reveal she has, but says she trusts Erik. Meanwhile, Darcy is shocked to find her ex-boyfriend, Ian Boothby. Their relationship, which started soon after the Convergence, didn't end well as they couldn't make it work. Ian tags and bags things for Anjelica, and trains in the underground gym, having beefed up. Felix looks at the boxes waiting to be returned to their proper places, including "The Battle of New York", "Damage Control", and "177A Bleecker Street". He takes a look at some classified files, one about a UFO encounter near Winslow, Arizona, one a missing-persons report on Janet van Dyne, but Ian makes him put them back. He hands Darcy her old MP3 player, revealing that when S.H.I.E.L.D. gave it back after the Thor encounter, it was a decoy duplicate with a tracking device, and this is the real one. They realise Felix has disappeared. Selvig, meanwhile, plugs in the flash drive and Felix finds him, sitting to watch. The video diary has Jane sitting at Smith Motors Auto Dealership, Puente Antiguo. Her phone rings off camera, and she checks it to find it's Don Blake, but ignores the call. She starts talking about the auroras and magnetic storms and Selvig fast-forwards, knowing she will talk for a long time about their beauty. She gets into talking about the one in Puente Antiguo, Thor's arrival, taking him to the hospital. Felix interrupts to ask about Einstein-Rosen bridges, the Rainbow Bridge, and the Bifrost, but Selvig stops him to resume the video. Jane talks about S.H.I.E.L.D. and Coulson stealing their equipment and Thor getting her diary back. Selvig now interrupts to tell Felix how he was the one to rescue Thor, and how he bonded with him that night. He admits he doubted Jane's confidence about what was going on. He resumes the video, Jane talks about Thor, them bonding, him explaining the Nine Realms, and the struggle with convincing the scientific community. Felix says his parents always believed, and he remembers watching the Avengers in New York City on the TV, eating Frosted Sugarbombs. Jane talks about Loki taking over Asgard, and the Warriors Three coming to Earth, listing Fandral, Hogun, and Volstagg, plus Lady Sif, whom she calls one of the fiercest women she's ever met. She tells of the Destroyer's attack, and Mjolnir, with Darcy calling it "Meow-Meow". Thor's apparent death, reviving to defeat the Destroyer, and having S.H.I.E.L.D. give back their things. She finishes the first video, and Selvig feels energised, some hope restored, just by seeing his friend and her thoughts again. Selvig starts the next video. Jane says it's time to talk about the Aether.
          • p41 - Selvig hasn't seen Anjelica in "years".
          • p41 - They met at the Scientific Frontiers conference. She was an astrobiologist who worked for NASA, and spent late nights bonding over their love of the cosmos. "Years later", he hired her onto Project P.E.G.A.S.U.S., and she became one of his closest friends and colleagues.
          • p42 - "After the incident with Loki, their working relationship ended, and their friendship suffered. As a result, they hadn't spoken or seen each other in a few years."
        • p45 - ""Good interns are so hard to find. I was supposed to have a bunch from some elite magnet schools, but they all bailed at the last minute. Guess they didn't want to get stuck in a basement in the desert all summer."" This would imply it's currently summer, so presumably Summer 2018.
          • p59 - During Thor, S.H.I.E.L.D. gave Darcy a decoy duplicate MP3 with a tracker instead of the real one.
          • p62 - After the events of Thor, Jane made a video diary entry.
            • p68 - Arthur C. Clarke and his science/magic quote exist in the MCU.
        • p73 - "The faith he'd lost in the past few months was returning," implying a few months since the Snap. Coupled with the summer line, I would guess it's around late August 2018.
          • p73 - After the events of Thor: The Dark World, Jane made another video diary entry.
      • "Chapter 4": Jane starts talking about Erik running naked around Stonehenge, which he fast-forwards. She goes back to the time between New Mexico and London, saying she heard nothing from Thor, then Selvig was kidnapped and controlled by Loki and Darcy and her were whisked to Tromsø, New York was attacked, and Thor went back to Asgard without checking in. Erik invited her to London, but disappeared by the time she got there. Felix jokes that he ghosted Jane just like Thor, and Erik becomes emotional remembering how horrible being trapped inside his own brain felt, so Felix apologises. He explains about the mental health facility and Darcy and Ian rescuing him. Resuming, Jane talks about her Phase Meter picking up emissions, the London warehouse, being transported to the dark world where she was infected with the red liquid, returning to Earth, Thor returning, and accidentally lashing out against the police. She tells of Thor taking her to Asgard by the Bifrost, the Soul Forge/Quantum Field Generator, and Odin rejecting her until the liquid lashed out again, which he realised was the Aether. She says she came to find out later it was one of six unique cosmic forces, which Erik is particularly interested by. Jane recounts how Odin told her about the leader of the Dark Elves, Malekith, using the Aether as a weapon against King Bor, and the Asgardians defeating him at the Convergence - and how Malekith and the Dark Elves reawakened as the Aether did, ahead of the Convergence. Selvig lists the Nine Realms to Felix: Asgard, Jotunheim, Svartalfheim, Vanaheim, Nidavellir, Niflheim, Muspelheim, Alfheim, and Midgard/Earth, and explains the Convergence. Felix asks if you could pinpoint an epicentre and stabilise the activity, and Selvig explains they created a set of Gravimetric Spikes to do that. Resuming the video, Jane tells of Malekith's attack and Frigga's death and funeral, and how she was then stuck on Asgard, feeling the Aether killing her. Selvig starts to feel like he might have failed in supporting Jane over the years. Jane continues, telling of how they went to Svartalfheim and Malekith got the Aether, then they found a portal back to Earth. How Erik pinpointed Greenwich, England as the epicentre, gravity and physics went bonkers, and Darcy and Ian were there with them, plus there was a Jotunheim beast that came through a portal. How they used the tweaked Gravimetric Spikes, beat Malekith, how Thor took the Aether back to Asgard, and how she still feels changed by the Aether, down to her essence and soul. She says she has something else to get off her chest, but will save it for next time. Selvig is desperate to learn more about the six cosmic forces, and Felix takes the tablet, hacking in past the encrypted data, having learned hacking when he was young. Another video plays, which Jane says will be her last entry before handing her material to Anjelica Tan, and she is talking about how her and Thor had different paths in the end and broke up. She says that something else has been on her mind: during her time on Asgard, she browsed Odin's library and found out about the set of powerful items that, if wielded together, could control the universe. Anjelica storms in though, angry at them hacking in further and saying that this isn't the first time he's abused her trust, that he needs to go and heal his mind. Anjelica agrees to tell him about someone planning something he'll want to know about if he reveals who he's going to next, and he reluctantly reveals it's Anoki, which makes Anjelica laugh. Darcy returns and Anjelica tells them Ignatius Bixby is throwing a party, who Selvig declares is a fraud. Darcy knows him as Iggy Bixby, "the infomerical guy" whom her mum loves. Anjelica says he's a patent snatcher, stealing people's ideas, cheapening them, and making lots of money, and h's gathering the scientific community for an announcement. Selvig refuses to go. She suddenly remembers something and runs to a drawer, but comes back disappointed, saying she wanted to give Felix "a tiny piece of Arnim Zola's burned-out circuitry as a little souvenir", but can't find it. She mentions they should eat because they'll need energy for the "climb" to Anoki's, and as they say goodbye to her and Ian and leave, Darcy asks what exactly she meant by that.
          • p81 - ""Every five thousand years the realms align themselves.""
          • p83 - ""Jane and I have been colleagues for many years. Before that, her father and I taught at Culver together for decades. I made a vow to myself that after he passed, I'd always support her.""
          • p83 - Felix says, "I've followed Doctor Foster's career for a long time. Ever since I was, like, six."
          • p86 - Jane made another diary entry after her break-up with Thor.
      • "Chapter 5": They finish eating. Erik steps out for fresh air and Felix asks Darcy if Erik is losing it. She explains he was getting better, but the decimation event has thrown him off again. Felix says he was very excited when Erik turned up at the Seafarer and started saving money to get to a school in California, but eventually got to know Erik. He wonders if the Aether might be a Radical Quantum Selector, and Darcy complains about the constant science talk. Felix turns the conversation to what to go as for Halloween. He's unsure, Darcy suggests Iron Man, saying he's cool. Felix says that while Stark is cool, he prefers Doctor Foster, and Darcy says Jane has her favourite hat. Felix gets things out from his pockets to find money, but Darcy agrees to pay. She notices he has a photo of his parents in front of the New York Hall of Science. Erik taps on the window and gestures that they have to go. They hike through the Sangre De Cristo Mountains, and Selvig explains Anoki doesn't have a phone, forsaking modern comforts in favour of natural living. Anoki was a gifted student of his at Culver University then entered the Theoretical Astrophysics program, eventually made money off an app predicting weather for travellers and retired early. Erik leads them to a hillside cavern. Anoki reveals themselves, gender fluid, tall and thin with caramel skin, waist length silky black hair, and warm blue eyes. He explains he's looking for Jane and a greater understanding of recent events. Anoki asks why he is here and not at the Water of Sight, which he had told them about before and asked not to mention. Selvig says it's too powerful and unpredictable. Anoki says to go to Bixby's party, but he refuses. Anoki says Bixby is actually jealous of Selvig as a man of science with opinions that are deeply considered and have value in the community, and the event is him trying to show Erik he's flying. They call Bixby a low-rent Tony Stark, and say that isn't saying much, considering Stark is a "capitalist in a cheap suit of gaudy armor", but Selvig says "Stark is a brilliant man", even if he can be a "stubborn egomaniac", since he cares about people and the future. Anoki says they know Erik has really come for help healing his mind, and gives him a thick black tea, telling him to drink. When he does, he sweats and falls to his knees, and Anoki says that when he wakes, his burden will have lifted. They explain to Darcy that it's a ritual called smudging meant to cleanse an area of negative energy, as well as that they're a survivalist, and have also noticed that Darcy is "the glue". Anoki reveals they have a tablet and aren't as off-the-grid as Erik thought, showing Darcy they have a file on her. Darcy is freaked out, but Anoki assures they simple kept in touch with Erik over the years, and says they are the reason Darcy has a job. Darcy points out Jane hired her, not Erik, but Anoki says they are the reason Erik kept Darcy on. They turn to Felix, asking if he wants to be the next Erik. Darcy suggests he wants to be the next Jane, but he just says he wants to be the first him, and Anoki says they have a friend who's an instructor at the Wakandan Outreach Centre and they would be lucky to have him. Selvig, meanwhile, finds himself in a vision with Loki taunting him, then summoning the Scepter, but with a drab pebble instead of a blue gem. The stone explodes, replaced by the gem, and Loki continues to mock him for being frightened, sending him flying into a pile of gravel. A mysterious figure sits in a craggy chair atop a throne of boulders nearby and laughs. Selvig stands up to him but Loki doesn't believe him and throws the Scepter at him. Selvig dodges, but it reappears in Loki's hand. Selvig is emboldened though and stands face-to-face with Loki, despite continued taunts. Selvig realises he was scared because he didn't understand the cosmic energies at play, but now knows he is in control of his own fate. He swipes the Scepter from Loki's grasp and tosses it. The figure on the throne laughs again and Selvig tells him he'll come for him next, before awakening in Anoki's encampment. He feels better, having vanquished the "manifestations of [his] struggles". Anoki then tells them to leave, giving Felix a business card to email and saying they will write a letter of recommendation for the Wakandan Outreach Centre. They give Erik an invitation to Bixby's event, and Erik notes a crescent shape, which Anoki says is Bixby's new logo. Darcy asks if they can go home, but Erik says there's been a change of plans.
          • p95 - Felix checked into the Seafarer after the Snap, worked at night, schooled himself during the day, and would hear Erik talking to himself whenever he walked past his room. Eventually he knocked and they talked for an afternoon.
      • p96 - They've known "each other less than a day".
          • p97 - Again, Felix is a "twelve-year-old".
        • p97 - Halloween seems to be soon-ish, which would fit with the apparent approximate August 2018 setting.
        • p100 - "The sun was bright", fitting with summer.
          • p100 - Anoki was a gifted student of his at Culver University then entered the Theoretical Astrophysics program, winning grants, awards, and accolades all before the end of sophomore year. They dropped out of school and invented an app to allow travellers to plan getaways based on weather prediction.
            • p103 - It's now "evening".
          • p104 - Erik taught Anoki at least in freshman year, and used to bark at them when they were late to class.
          • p106 - "Years ago, he shared a story with Anoki about a strange and ancient body of water he'd visited with Thor." It's presumably only been 3 years, so he likely told Anoki soon after for it to be "years", suggesting at least about 3 years.
          • p123 - Felix says he will email in about a week.
      • "Chapter 6": They arrive at a junkyard in Compton, California, and in a corner near the back is a tiny cottage owned by a man called Bisi Banyaga, who used to work with Selvig at the University of London. Selvig calls to him as "Reverse Engineer" and two enormous hounds of his come down. Selvig asks him to call them off. Bisi opens the door, asking if this is about him calling him a bore in Science Digest or about Anjelica Tan's new boyfriend, whom Erik didn't know about. Erik says it's about saving the world, and Bisi flicks a switch and the hounds disappear, just holograms. He lets them in, having some Agatogo - a Rwandan soup - on the stove. Felix looks at a document about "optogenics", which Bisi explains is a technique that uses light to change the behaviour of genetically modified tissues or organisms. Felix says that could be dangerous in the wrong hands, but Bisi says scientific development is always dangerous. Bisi assumes Erik's there to beg him to bring him as a plus-one to Bixby's, but Erik says he's here for help with creating "a device that can harness cosmic energies and communicate directly with the collective consciousness of the universe". Darcy is confused, thinking they were here to ask about Jane, but Erik says the plan has changed. Felix asks why Erik called him the Reverse Engineer, and he says he takes things apart, studies them, and puts them back together, sometimes to work in new ways. Bisi says he will help if Erik tells him about the Tesseract, "the jewel of Odin's throne room", and some S.H.I.E.L.D. secrets. He points out he particularly likes Captain America, and if you "add Bucky to the mix", he'd "definitely ship it", which Erik doesn't understand. Felix asks Bisi to explain exactly how Captain America survived in the ice. Bisi says Steve's body chemistry was changed when he became the super-soldier, and that tardigrades can metabolise glycogen in their liver, reducing osmotic shrinkage of cells. Felix understands that Steve's body contained extreme amounts of glucose, so the water in his blood couldn't freeze and his body was preserved. Bisi affirms this, saying his enhanced blood essentially contains a cryoprotectant. Erik says he wants to know what Bixby is doing with the Crescent and in return will talk about the Tesseract. Bisi agrees, and Erik starts recounting its history but Bisi stops him, wanting its modern journey. He explains that after World War II, it was recovered by Howard Stark, but he never reignited its power. Fury later drafted him into P.E.G.A.S.U.S. to work at the Joint Dark Energy Mission Facility in the Mojave Desert. But they couldn't crack it until Loki arrived. Loki destroyed the facility and controlled his mind, had him create a device to focus the Tesseract energy and open a portal allowing the Chitauri through. Bisi says his cousin found a Chitauri eating rats behind a dumpster in Queens, but Felix explains their hive mind shut down during the battle, so his cousin lied to him. Bisi explains his cousin is indeed a known liar. Erik explains Thor took the Tesseract back to Asgard, and he assumes it's still there. Bisi in return tells him Bixby has been stockpiling materials and is up to something, having gone silent and clearly now ready to unveil whatever it is. He explains the party is just 30 minutes away. He tosses them a knapsack with wigs for disguise, and Erik reluctantly considers that he will have to go.
        • They've gone from the Sangre De Cristo mountains to Compton, California, which is a 16-hour drive, so presumably this is either the following night or the morning after that, Day 3 (with Day 1 being the beginning).
          • p126 - "In his early years, Banyaga studied engineering at the University of London."
            • p127 - Science Digest exists in the MCU.
          • p129 - "A few years back, a group of local scientists were able to erase specific memories in laboratory mice."
        • p132 - ""That big ol' info dump a few years back."" Fits as 2014 and now 2018.
            • p132 - Urban Dictionary exists in the MCU.
          • p132 - ""How did Captain America survive, trapped in a block of ice for, like, fifty years?"" Felix is just quite far off here.
          • p135 - "Tønsberg, Norway. March 1942."
          • p135 - Selvig being hired by Fury was "decades later" after World War II (obviously).
            • p136 - Einstein's Theory of General Relativity exists in the MCU.
        • p137 - Bisi says his cousin found a Chitauri leftover from the fight behind a dumpster in Queens "a few years ago". His cousin lied, but this means it's at least "a few years" since 2012. Obviously, this fits.
            • p139 - The party is "thirty minutes away", which could become relevant.
      • "Chapter 7": They arrive at Bixby's compound in the Hollywood Hills and the Mary Jackson dies. Selvig is anxious to move on, but Darcy is annoyed at his dismissal of the car's value to her. She says she always shows up for him, but right now she needs some space, and walks off. Felix catches up with her and convinces her to come with them, since they seem to be close to finding whatever Erik is looking for. Erik admits he is nervous about seeing Bixby, and worried about what Bixby might have built. Felix asks why Erik mentioned the Water of Sight once at the hotel but never again, and whether it might hold the key to everything, but Erik says it's too dangerous for humans to tamper with. Felix says Erik is scared, asking where the Doctor Selvig who pushed boundaries and went the distance despite the odds being stacked against him is. Erik says he won't be lectured to by a child, and Darcy tosses him the wig bag, telling him to put one on and stop talking. Selvig puts on a wig of long, brown, ratty and tangled hair and sticks on two goatee pieces, Darcy puts on a wig of bouncing blonde locks, and Felix can find nothing left, but Darcy points out he doesn't need to be disguised. They enter "Bixby-Con" with all sorts of booths with seemingly incredible breakthroughs. Selvig calls everyone hear fakes, quacks, and reality TV stars. A cater waiter offers meatballs called Pym Particles. A woman called Linda in the foyer has hundreds of name tags and asks who they might be. Darcy cans them, recognising some names: Cho, Halliwell, Benhamou, Marlow, Banner. Linda admits some names are just for show and won't actually be attending. Darcy picks a name and says she's "Penny Miller, Microneural Biologist", and Erik is "Brizan Versteeg, Renewable Energy Developer". Darcy writes Felix a name tag for "Felix, Intern". They are given an itinerary. Linda says highlights include Biomisting, Smart Blobs, Doctor Elodie's Entropic Circuit, a performance this evening by Anna & the Ablations including the hit Vaporize, and getting a photo taken with "Vysion". She also says to keep their hands off the Permeable Membrane. Selvig says everyone here is out for fame rater than betterment of humanity. He spots someone he knows, Doctor Mansoor Amjed, and calls out, but Darcy reminds him he's undercover. He heads out into the crowd to try to be "Brizan Versteeg". Darcy realises Felix has wandered over Scientifica's Miraculous Gene Drives, with fifty small bunny rabbits in cages. Scientifica tells her their technology creates a unique genetic trait, known as a Gene Drive, and inserts it into an organism, modifying their DNA and eventually spreading through the population. The rabbits have had their digestive systems modified to eat meat instead of vegetables. A peculiar but otherwise average man with brown hair and a medium build, called Darryl, approaches Selvig, trying to talk about Quantum Futurism and Lennox theory. When Selvig refuses, he says that if he prefers they can discuss the effects of the Gaudet-Bowie Law of- but Erik cuts him off. Darryl says he thought Erik was "one of the actors", not a real scientist. Bixby comes over, a short man with thick white hair, slicked back. He says he owns a yacht with Brizan Versteeg, the Scientific American, so he knows this isn't him. Selvig drops his Norwegian accent and says he must have got the wrong tag. He says he's about to unveil his big invention and goes upstairs to do so. Darcy and Felix come across a video presentation about "Smart Blobs", gelatinous balls filled with hundreds of tiny robotic nanites for entertainment. Darcy spots a woman dressed casually in a simple jacket and jeans, with her hair in a ponytail and wearing a Culver University baseball cap. Darcy notices a small hole in the cap, and realises it looks an awful lot like her cap - the one she loaned to Jane.
          • p141 - Darcy has had the Mary Jackson for "all these years". She "was living in it when Jane hired" her.
            • p142 - Cheez Doodles exist in the MCU.
          • p145 - ""One night, when you first came to the hotel [...] I heard you in your room, talking to yourself [...] You got so bent out of shape over the Water of Sight.""
        • p149 - "The first annual Bixby-Con", which could become relevant.
            • p151 - "This evening Anna & the Ablations will be performing", suggesting it's daytime currently, so likely.
        • It being daytime suggests it's Day 3.
          • p153 - Darcy was a political science major.
            • p156 - John Lennox exists in the MCU.
      • "Chapter 8": Darcy goes through the crowd to get to the woman. A cater waiter offers her a drink called a Gamma Bomb, which she refuses. She blocks the woman, and finds it is indeed Jane, who is shocked and confused, not expecting to see anyone she knew. Darcy hugs her and says they thought she might be- but Jane cuts her off, signalling to be quiet. She asks where Jane has been, and Jane says she had to take herself off the grid to protect Darcy, Erik, and her work. Darcy explains Erik has struggled since the decimation event, and Jane apologises for not being around to help. Felix finds them and is excited to see Jane, frantically talking about how he admires her work. Jane thanks him and states they need to find Erik, when an announcement blares that Bixby is about to speak. Darcy asks if she has spoken to Thor lately, wanting some DVDs back, but Jane says those DVDs are probably gone. They get Selvig's attention and he comes over and embraces Jane. He says how he took it upon himself after her father's passing to make sure he can be there for her and wishes she had told them she was safe, and she says she will give him an explanation soon, but that her work led her in an unexpected direction and she couldn't involve them without putting them in danger. She says that she, too, has come thinking Bixby might be up to something. Erik explains he has worked out the decimation event is tied to the items of power they've encountered, and how they went to Anjelica and saw her video diaries. Felix explains he hacked the encryption. She tells them about happening upon Odin's library, and found out about colourful stones made up of raw cosmic energy, each imbued with unique powers, and the Aether, Tesseract, and Scepter are among them. She tells him the name: Infinity Stones, then telling of how they were born at the beginning of the universe and the six aspects of the universe they represent. Erik realises the Tesseract is just the casing for what Jane explains is the Time Stone and can open portals and teleport across vast distances. Felix works out that it's so powerful it can only be contained controlled in the Tesseract. Jane says the Aether is the Reality Stone, and in its shapeless form can possess a host body and give them unlimited strength and unpredictable power, but that in its solid form it can create illusions and twist perceptions. Felix exclaims that he was right, it is a Radical Quantum Selector. He says that Hugh Everett III proposed that there are an infinite number of parallel universes, a lot similar, others very different, and essentially any reality you can think of exists, so the Aether allows its wielder to access these alternate realities and manifest them into our physical universe. Jane continues by saying the Power Stone can destroy worlds and that its casing is known as the Orb, the Time Stone allows wielder to go backward or forward in time, changing whatever they see fit, Loki's Scepter housed the Mind Stone, and all the stones together could control the totality of existence, with Jane believing they are behind the decimation event. When Felix asks about the sixth stone, she says the Soul Stone is a mystery. Jane states that she at first thought Bixby might have one of the stones, but then intercepted a communication that scared her - that she's been keeping tabs on him, and he's been keeping tabs on Erik, and has built some kind of device that he will use to destroy the planet. Erik explains that he came up with the Crescent device one night and forgot until he saw the symbol on Anoki's invitation. Darcy remembers the half-moon shape from his wall, and Erik states that Bixby has co-opted his idea. Jane asks what the Crescent does, but then the lights dim and Bixby makes his grand entrance.
            • p161 - Dolly Parton exists in the MCU.
        • p161 - ""It's been an interesting couple of days, to say the least"", indeed suggesting it's been 2 days since the start of the book.
          • p164 - Darcy lent Thor Bill Nye DVDs that she never got back.
            • p164 - Bill Nye exists in the MCU.
          • p165 - Erik says to Jane, "When your father passed years ago."
          • p167 - Again, while on Asgard, Jane happened upon Odin's library. She wasn't supposed to go there, but went nonetheless.
            • p169 - Hugh Everett III exists in the MCU.
      • "Chapter 9": A voice introduces Bixby, though the voice appears to be Bixby himself, introducing him as the inventor of the Handi-Pan and a TV personality who's appeared on shows like Doodad King and What IS That?. Bixby steps out and panders to the crowd, getting them going and excited. He talks about how he was once a nobody like most of them, but has become rich through projects he claims are his. He says that of course the world has had a catastrophe, complaining that his assistants Kaitlyn and Connor disintegrated into his hot tub while he was there, and that he had to drain the tub and disinfect it. He says he wanted to get to the bottom of the decimation event and points out that the Avengers have brought nasty cosmic energy to Earth. He unveils a silver device the size of a frisbee, the "Crescent", to "allow humanity to access the heavens themselves". Felix suggests they steal it and use it to jump-start the Water of Sight, stabilising things with the Gravimetric Spikes. Selvig realises he is probably right, but it would need a detailed plan. He asks Jane, and she agrees it might work. He tells Jane to go upstairs and get it, and rips off his wig and goatee, calling him out for stealing his idea. Bixby is pleased, saying Selvig is jealous that he has done what Selvig couldn't, and after so long trying to court him, he realised that the best thing to do is stop chasing and wait for him to show up. He explains that he spoke to Ken from the Seafarer Motel, not-so-subtly hinting he bugged Erik's room, and Erik realises that's how he knew about the idea. Jane moves into position behind the balcony curtain and nods to Erik. Erik calls out to the crowd to rise up against him, but the crowd take Bixby's side, saying Erik thinks he's better than them. Bixby plays the video of Erik running around Stonehenge naked. Meanwhile, though Erik is left feeling powerless, he makes eye contact with Jane and she removes the Crescent while people are distracted. She gets to the bottom of the stairs when Bixby spots her and shouts for the crowd to stop her. A man called Doctor Globulus weakly tosses a Smart Blob at Jane, but she dodges it with ease. The other attendees then start grabbing Smart Blobs. Erik spots Felix and Darcy by the Gene Drive, and Felix and Darcy toss open each rabbit cage to release the animals as distractions. A "clunky, junky android" tries to stop Jane, announcing himself as Vysion, nit Jane stabs it with a blade from her waistband, easily ripping the cheap metal. Jane comments that he should have been vibranium. Erik looks back at Bixby, pleased to see him furious. The group escape through the door and down the driveway, and realise they have no transportation, when suddenly a Tomahawk helicopter roars down and ominously hovers above them. Felix worries it's the police, but a rope ladder falls down and they're called to board. They ascend the ladder and find Anjelica Tan, Anoki, and Bisi Banyaga. Anoki says to take a breath, and that then they will discuss business. They add to buckle up, as they're going to Norway.
        • p174 - Bixby couldn't use his hot tub for "weeks" after the Snap, meaning it's at least "weeks" since the Snap.
          • p179 - "After years of chasing Selvig, the man had finally shown up on his doorstep."
            • p183 - The Tomahawk helicopter exists in the MCU.
      • "Chapter 10": Banyaga pilots the helicopter and Anjelica says they're going to the Water of Sight, explaining that it's Anoki's vehicle - again, Erik notices, not living as off-the-grid as he thought. Anoki says that the three of them knew enough about Erik to put the plan in motion to save them. Anjelica is excited to see Jane and says she didn't want to say anything, but knew Jane was out there somewhere, doing her thing. Erik is grateful for the save, but scared of dealing with the Water of Sight. They land and jump out, and Anjelica reveals she brought the Gravimetric Spikes and Phase Meter. Bisi explains they can't fly a helicopter from California to Norway, so they're changing into a sleek black supersonic jet. Erik believes that the configuration of the Crescent and Spikes will function as a conductor, absorbing the output of energy from the Water of Sight, refocus it through the Spikes, and open an Einstein-Rosen bridge - but not for interstellar travel, instead as a "galactic communication conduit". Jane says she needs to reconfigure the Spikes and Bisi swings her a backpack with unique tools inside. Erik thinks that they can get the Water of Sight to show them visions like it did for Thor. She gets to work with Felix. Anoki explains the flight will be shorter than they think, and they'll arrive in Oslo, where a vehicle is waiting to take them to Tønsberg. Anjelica tells Darcy Ian quit, but that she's grateful, as he "wasn't the brightest bulb". Anjelica again says that Darcy is important to Erik. Bisi tells them that the three of them guessed Erik would end up in a mess at Bixby's, and calls the group the "Science Avengers", which Selvig doesn't particularly like. The flight finishes, having been smooth, and the drive to Tønsberg is quick. The Water of Sight is located in a cavern outside the city's centre, and the locals know to avoid it, particularly after Hydra's theft of the Tesseract in World War II, teaching them some powers weren't worth toying with. Jane holds out her Phase Meter, but finds it seems to be like a dead zone. They get behind a rocky column, away from the Water of Sight, and Erik flips a switch, warning there might be lightning, static, or they could tear through the fabric of reality. Felix uses a remote to jolt the Spikes with power, creating a gravity well above the pool. He turns on the Crescent, and the air in the cave starts vibrating. The Gravimetric Spikes shake and start to come apart. Bisi cracks open the Crescent and finds it's channeling too much power for the Spikes, and that they need to absorb the output. Felix reveals he swiped the Kimoyo Bead from Anjelica's bunker and thinks it should do the trick. Anjelica is not happy he stole it, but it does work. Felix is a little sad for having given up what he feels is the coolest thing he's ever owned, pointing out that it's not likely he would ever get another piece of Wakanda. Bisi assures him he has a bright future. Felix activates the Crescent and the Spikes shake again. Gusts of powerful wind sweep through the cavern, stirring dust and rock. Electricity dances, and the Spikes look like they're about to collapse before a sudden boom goes off and the chaos stops. Above the Water of Sight, on the cavern ceiling, a wormhole opens and spreads out like a tapestry - meant as a window into the unknown, unlike a normal Einstein-Rosen bridge. The dawn of the cosmos is shown, and six bold flashes of colour as the Infinity Stones blink into existence. The Space Stone bounces from place to place until settling into the Tesseract, changing hands through the centuries, travelling to earth, falling into the hands of Red Skull, used by Loki, and then "eventually ending up in the possession of a mysterious purple-hued Titan. Though the assembled team was unaware of his identity, the universe knew him well. Thanos". The Reality Stone, once in the possession of Malekith and the Dark Elves, reaches Jane briefly - the real Jane watches herself depicted. The Collector is shown inheriting the stone, but it is taken from him by Thanos. Selvig makes a mental note of Thanos' face. The Infinity Gauntlet emerges from a cloud of smoke and snaps and "beings across a thousand worlds turned to ash". Heroes, villains, aliens, faces familiar and strange, heartbreaking images of pain. The dust of the dead swirls into the Soul Stone, which radiates a surprising sense of wholeness that leaves them a little at ease. Hurried footsteps rush through the cavern - Bixby has arrived, angry. He swings a thick steel rod to smash the Gravimetric Spikes until they're damaged beyond repair. The portal evaporates and the images dissolve. Bixby rips the Crescent from its connection and angrily tells them he put in a fail-safe. Erik tries to warn him not to step into the Water of Sight, but Bixby interrupts, shouting that he knows what it is, and they have led him right to it. He believes he's protected by the Crescent and plunges in, and the Water of Sight erupts in electricity. His body is sucked up out of the pool and into a storm of heat and light, his eyes bulge, his body shakes, and raw cosmic power courses through his body until it spits him out against the cavern wall. The Water of Sight swallows the Crescent and then returns to its calm, natural state. Jane checks Bixby's vitals and finds him alive, but says they need to get him to a doctor. Darcy checks with the others that they, too, saw "a tree person and a raccoon with a gun at one point", and they confirm it. Erik struggles to comprehend everything, but is relieved to have answers. While it would take time and resources to piece it all together, and a new mystery has taken shape, he is ready, and fells at peace. Darcy hands them all Dollar Holler key chains. Felix asks Erik what's on his mind, and Erik says "the future".
          • p191 - Darcy has "picked up a few skills over the years" with handling big egos and communication with "unruly individuals".
        • Assuming around 1100mph, it would be about 5 hours by jet from Hollywood Hills to Oslo. If they left around 16:00 California, so 19:00 New York, they'd arrive around midnight New York time. A further hour by car to Tønsberg, they'd get there around 01:00 New York. So, we're on Day 4.
          • p203 - "After years of theories, questions, and endless wondering, Erik Selvig finally had answers," so presumably "years" since Thor, which is obvious.
            • p204 - Euripides and the, "Question everything. Learn something. Answer nothing," quote exist in the MCU.
      • "Epilogue": 1 month later, Erik is standing outside a large, rusty metal dome, once a military facility, on the outskirts of Puente Antiguo, now owned by Anjelica Tan. He is waiting for his lunch companion. After the Water of sight, he had taken a step back to reorganise his life and work. He heard Felix above, and looks up to find him hovering, wearing homemade gravity boots. Erik says he heard from Bisi that Felix was in his element. Felix lands and says he loves working with Bisi's junk, and wants to design "something totally crazy, like cybernetic rhino armor". The story online is that Bixby hit his head while on an expedition, and Erik explains that he's currently in a coma, but being well cared for and expected to make a full recovery - saying he hopes when he wakes, Bixby will be rehabilitated. A shiny silver sports car arrives and Darcy steps out in a black dress, short grey sport coat, and brand new designer sunglasses, smiling brightly. She admits the car's a rental until Erik buys her a new car. She says she has to bail on lunch, as a work thing has sprung up and she has to go to the airport. Darcy has taken an enhanced role, as "Head of Science-Based Initiatives", asking people for money to fund their projects and designing science-based programs for schools and communities. She's heading to Washington, D.C. to meet with Senator Harrison about making the programs a reality. she's excited to put her major to use, but points out that unfortunately, most of Harrison's political campaigns have been funded by science deniers, and isn't the kind of legislator who respects their work. Felix says he's an idiot, thinking Earth is flat. Darcy says she's also bringing photos she got of him on the beach smooching a red-haired woman who isn't his wife. Erik tells her he said no blackmail, but she says that science is important for enhancing people's ability to solve practical problems and make informed decisions, so if he says no, he'll be saying no to the future, and then she'll have to make him regret it. Bisi calls Felix back in, and Felix admits he can't do lunch either as he's behind on an experiment and Doctor Banyaga will kill him if he misses another deadline. Erik says that if he plans on attending the Wakandan Outreach Centre... and Felix cuts him off, saying he knows he needs to raise his game, he's heard it before. While Bisi is frustrated by still improving the new place, Erik assures him their grand plan is taking shape, to give it time. Felix asks what that is, and if the other "Science Avengers" know about it, but Erik avoids the question and says he doesn't like that name. Darcy tells them Anoki says hello and is back in school finishing their degree, and has donated to built their- Erik cuts her off, saying not to go into the details. He says Jane sends her regrets, wanting to be here but her work having taken precedence. Felix says he has a new theory about the Infinity Stones and wants to email Jane, and asks Erik if he wants to be copied in. Erik says he would be honoured. Felix asks again what the dome is for, what Erik is planning, and Erik says it's "expansion", that a scientist's work must keep growing, and while the odds are stacked against them, surrounding themselves with individuals who inspire their work and keep them in check helps - saying he had previously forgotten that for a long time. He looks up to the sky, takes a deep breath, and says, "The end is never really the end, is it? There's always more to be done."
        • p208 - Felix says Darcy is "dressed for either court or church", potentially implying it's a Sunday.
          • p205 - "Once used as a military facility, it sat vacant on the outskirts of Puente Antiguo for years until Anjelica Tan snatched it up at a discount."
          • p209 - When Felix says he wanted to show Darcy his workshop, she says, "Relax. I know what a teenage body's bedroom is like [...] I'm sure yours is fairly disgusting," potentially implying he's now a teenager, so just turned 13 in the 1-month jump.

      It seems to be a "few months" after the Snap, in summer, so the best setting for me seems to be late August 2018. With Day 1 of the book being a weekday, so roughly Wednesday, I would guess Wednesday, August 29, 2018-Saturday, September 1, 2018, with the 1-month jump then taking us to early October, ideally a Sunday, so Sunday, October 7, 2018.

        Loading editor
    • Oh wow so pretty overlapping! Thatll be hard to figure out but fun to actually watch! Whoever did the breakdown of events in the first two episodes of Runaways was a lifesaver and that was a really fun experience to actually watch through chronologically

        Loading editor
    • Shabook
      Shabook removed this reply because:
      15:39, September 24, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Additional to "Spider-Man: Far From Home" Sony released a "The Daily Bugle" website.

      https://www.thedailybugle.net/

        Loading editor
    • Spring 2018 Overlap (Nox23)

      Nox23 wrote: Oh wow so pretty overlapping! Thatll be hard to figure out but fun to actually watch! Whoever did the breakdown of events in the first two episodes of Runaways was a lifesaver and that was a really fun experience to actually watch through chronologically

      Thanks! That was me, and I did watch the Runaways episodes back and forth in the order I worked out, and agree, it's rewarding.

      Wherever there's overlap, we do our best to put them in chronological order. The Daredevil: Season 2/Luke Cage: Season 1 overlap should be in order scene-by-scene, same with Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 4/Jessica Jones: Season 2. Done overlapping or non-linear stories like the beginning of Runaways and some Cloak & Dagger episodes. Currently working on the Iron Fist: Season 2/Cloak & Dagger: Season 2/Daredevil: Season 3 overlap. I have an old project I'll get back to at some point to make sure Fury's Big Week is all correctly ordered, and yeah, will get to the exact order of scenes for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5/The Punisher: Season 2/Jessica Jones: Season 3 when those write-ups go up onto the 2018 page.

      For now, I can provide you with which events happen on the same days - which I've now worked out - just not the order within those days (apart from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s order with Avengers: Infinity War, which is already up).

      • Thursday, April 26
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 1 beginning to minute 3ish.
      • Friday, April 27
        • (The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 1 minute 2ish to minute 24ish flashbacks.)
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 1 minute 3ish to minute 11ish.
      • Saturday, April 28
        • (The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 1 minute 24ish to minute 45ish flashbacks.)
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 1 beginning to minute 46ish (beginning to minute 2ish, minute 2ish to minute 45ish flashbacks to day before, minute 45ish to minute 46ish).
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 1 minute 11ish to minute 24ish.
      • Sunday, April 29
        • Ant-Man and the Wasp cardboard tunnels to ten-pin bowling.
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 1 minute 46ish to end. Episode 2 beginning to end. Episode 3 beginning to minute 7ish.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 1 minute 24ish to end. Episode 2 beginning to minute 51ish.
      • Monday, April 30
        • Ant-Man and the Wasp magic tutorial to kidnapped.
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 3 minute 7ish to end.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 2 minute 51ish to end. Episode 3 beginning to minute 19ish.
      • Tuesday, May 1
        • Ant-Man and the Wasp Hope's car to escaping by faking a heart attack.
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 4 beginning to minute 29ish.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 3 minute 19ish to minute 28ish.
      • Wednesday, May 2
        • Ant-Man and the Wasp forest to ankle monitor removed.
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 4 minute 29ish to end. Episode 5 beginning to minute 10ish.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 3 minute 28ish to minute 29ish.
      • Thursday, May 3
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 5 minute 10ish to end.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 3 minute 29ish to minute 29ish.
      • Friday, May 4
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 6 beginning to minute 17ish.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 3 minute 29ish to minute 43ish.
      • Saturday, May 5
        • Ant-Man and the Wasp running to Maggie's and X-Con success.
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 6 minute 17ish to minute 21ish.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 3 minute 43ish to minute 53ish.
      • Sunday, May 6
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 6 minute 21ish to minute 22ish.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 3 minute 53ish to end. Episode 4 beginning to end.
      • Monday, May 7
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 6 minute 22ish to minute 26ish.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 5 beginning to minute 33ish.
      • Tuesday, May 8
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 6 minute 26ish to end. Episode 7 beginning to minute 9ish.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 5 minute 33ish to end.
      • Wednesday, May 9
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 7 minute 9ish to minute 21ish.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 6 beginning to end.
      • Thursday, May 10
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 7 minute 21ish to minute 28ish.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 7 beginning to minute 26ish.
      • Friday, May 11
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 7 minute 28ish to end. Episode 8 beginning to end.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 7 minute 26ish to end.
      • Saturday, May 12
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 9 beginning to minute 10ish.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 8 beginning to end. Episode 9 beginning to minute 2ish.
      • Sunday, May 13
        • Ant-Man and the Wasp house on the beach.
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 9 minute 10ish to end.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 9 minute 2ish to minute 27ish.
      • Monday, May 14
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 10 beginning to minute 9ish.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 9 minute 27ish to minute 47ish.
      • Tuesday, May 15
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 10 minute 9ish to end. Episode 11 beginning to end. Episode 12 beginning to end.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 9 minute 47ish to end. Episode 10 beginning to minute 15ish.
      • Wednesday, May 16
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 13 minute 9ish to minute 49ish.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 10 minute 15ish to minute 31ish.
      • Thursday, May 17
        • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, Episode 14 and Episode 15 beginning.
        • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 13 minute 49ish to minute 53ish.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 10 minute 31ish to minute 46ish.
      • Friday, May 18
        • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, Episode 15 "24 hours ago".
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 10 minute 46ish to end. Episode 11 beginning to end.
      • Saturday, May 19
        • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, Episode 15 "now".
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 12 beginning to minute 5ish.
      • Sunday, May 20
        • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, Episode 16, Episode 17, and Episode 18 beginning.
        • Ant-Man and the Wasp watching Them!.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 12 minute 5ish to minute 17ish.
      • Monday, May 21
        • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, Episode 18 main events.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 12 minute 17ish to minute 34ish.
      • Tuesday, May 22
        • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, Episode 18 ending.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 12 minute 34ish to minute 41ish.
      • Wednesday, May 23
        • Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 Groot mid-credits scene.
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 12 minute 41ish to end. Episode 13 beginning to minute 15ish.
      • Thursday, May 24
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 13 minute 15ish to minute 17ish.
      • Friday, May 25
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 13 minute 17ish to minute 28ish.
      • Saturday, May 26
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 13 minute 28ish to minute 36ish.
      • Sunday, May 27
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 13 minute 36ish to minute 42ish.
      • Monday, May 28
        • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 13 minute 42ish to end.
      • Wednesday, May 30-Thursday, May 31
        • Avengers: Infinity War, Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, Episode 19-22, and Ant-Man and the Wasp credits scenes order all laid out on 2018 page.

      And the watch order, based on the settings of the midpoints of the episodes/films, is (times given by New York, so converting up 3 hours for Ant-Man and the Wasp):

      • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 1 - Roadhouse Blues (April 28)
      • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 1 - A.K.A The Perfect Burger (April 29 morning)
      • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 2 - Fight or Flight (April 29 midday)
      • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 2 - A.K.A You're Welcome (April 29 evening)
      • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 3 - Trouble the Water (April 30)
      • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 3 - A.K.A I Have No Spleen (May 1 evening)
      • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 4 - Scar Tissue (May 1 night)
      • Ant-Man and the Wasp (May 2 morning)
      • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 5 - One-Eyed Jacks (May 3)
      • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 4 - A.K.A Customer Service Is Standing By (May 6)
      • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 6 - Nakazat (May 7 midday)
      • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 5 - A.K.A I Wish (May 7 evening)
      • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 6 - A.K.A Sorry Face (May 9)
      • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 7 - One Bad Day (May 10 evening)
      • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 7 - A.K.A The Double Half-Wappinger (May 10 later evening)
      • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 8 - My Brother's Keeper (May 11)
      • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 8 - A.K.A Camera Friendly (May 12)
      • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 9 - Flustercluck (May 13 midday)
      • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 9 - A.K.A I Did Something Today (May 13 evening)
      • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 10 - The Dark Hearts of Men (May 15)
      • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 11 - The Abyss (May 15)
      • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 12 - Collision Course (May 15)
      • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 10 - A.K.A Hero Pants (May 16 midday)
      • The Punisher: Season 2, Episode 13 - The Whirlwind (May 16 evening)
      • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, Episode 14 - The Devil Complex (May 17)
      • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 11 - A.K.A Hellcat (May 18)
      • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, Episode 15 - Rise and Shine (May 19)
      • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, Episode 16 - Inside Voices (May 20)
      • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, Episode 17 - The Honeymoon (May 20)
      • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, Episode 18 - All Roads Lead... (May 21 morning)
      • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 12 - A.K.A A Lotta Worms (May 21 evening)
      • Jessica Jones: Season 3, Episode 13 - A.K.A Everything (May 25)
      • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, Episode 19 - Option Two (May 30)
      • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, Episode 20 - The One Who Will Save Us All (May 30)
      • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, Episode 21 - The Force of Gravity (May 31 early hours)
      • Avengers: Infinity War (May 31 morning)
      • Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, Episode 22 - The End (May 31 later morning)


      The Daily Bugle (DieGrinsekatz77)

      DieGrinsekatz77 wrote: Additional to "Spider-Man: Far From Home" Sony released a "The Daily Bugle" website.

      https://www.thedailybugle.net/

      Yeah, very similar to the New York Bulletin site. And a reveal that Coach Wilson was Snapped, plus ages for Coach Wilson and Mr. Harrington.

      And of course, this video can presumably be added to the canon list, set right after Far from Home.

        Loading editor
    • Good to see all that coming together, great work as always BEJT.

      I have a few more hypotheticals. What would happen if, say in the future, Marvel Studios reboots Daredevil with a new actor, a new origin and an entirely different story, rendering the Netlfix show non-canon? Would the wiki remove all stuff from the Netflix shows? Would it just consider them as part of a similar parallel universe?

      Also, if the Sony/Disney situation does not get revolved and we get Spider-Man 3 out of the MCU, will the wiki still consider it as MCU technically because it's still Tom Holland's character? And if he crosses over into Venom 2, Morbius, etc., will all those also be considered MCU, even if officialy they aren't? I suppose that would be similar to how things are with Marvel TV right now, because the movies don't reference the shows (other than Agent Carter) except for that the Sony universe would not reference the MCU at all (and visa versa).

      I'm hoping none of this stuff happens, but just curious how this wiki will deal with these potential outcomes.

        Loading editor
    • CirUmeUela wrote: Would the wiki remove all stuff from the Netflix shows?

      No

      CirUmeUela wrote: Would it just consider them as part of a similar parallel universe?

      Probably, not sure

      CirUmeUela wrote: will the wiki still consider it as MCU technically because it's still Tom Holland's character?

      No

      CirUmeUela wrote: And if he crosses over into Venom 2, Morbius, etc., will all those also be considered MCU, even if officialy they aren't?

      No

        Loading editor
    • Fair enough, thanks!

        Loading editor
    • BEJT wrote: Yeah, very similar to the New York Bulletin site. And a reveal that Coach Wilson was Snapped, plus ages for Coach Wilson and Mr. Harrington.

      And of course, this video can presumably be added to the canon list, set right after Far from Home.

      And they incorporated the Area 51 raid from this month, lol.

      At least Harrington's age makes enough sense canon-wise that it creates no issues with his TIH appearance. So he was like 24-ish in that computer lab scene.

        Loading editor
    • BEJT wrote:
      ===Spring 2018 Overlap (Nox23)=== For now, I can provide you with which events happen on the same days - which I've now worked out - just not the order within those days (apart from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.'​s order with Avengers: Infinity War, which is already up).


      INCREDIBLE That's more than enough to go on, I can work out the scene by scene time-of-day stuff myself as i go.  It's gonna feel great getting back into the video editing and finishing that long stretch up

        Loading editor
    • The Daily Bugle (Mrmichaelt)

      Mrmichaelt wrote: And they incorporated the Area 51 raid from this month, lol.

      At least Harrington's age makes enough sense canon-wise that it creates no issues with his TIH appearance. So he was like 24-ish in that computer lab scene.

      37 in July 2024 and not Snapped, so born c. early 1987. So about 23 in The Incredible Hulk, yeah, which fits a reasonable amount. Still not entirely convinced it's firm canon that they're the same character, but hey.

      As for Coach Wilson, the Snap is a mess for ages and dates of birth. Makes it more fun...?

      • If he's 36 biologically:
        • Assuming it's supposed to be July 16, 2024, that would mean Coach Wilson is as old as if he were born between July 17, 1987 and July 16, 1988. The Snapped people were gone for 1965 days, so this would make his actual date of birth between February 28, 1982 and February 28, 1983.
          • February 28, 1982-February 28, 1983.
      • If he's had 36 birthdays:
        • Using the three key dates: May 31st (the Snap), July 16th (now), October 17th (the Blip):
          • June 1, 1981-July 16, 1981: 36 at time of Snap, 36 on October 17, 2023, 37th birthday in June-July 2024 after returning, so 37.
          • July 17, 1981-October 16, 1981: 36 at time of Snap, 36 on October 17, 2023, no birthday after returning, so 36.
          • October 17, 1981-May 31, 1982: 36 at time of Snap, 36 on October 17, 2023, 37th birthday in October 2023-May 2024 after returning, so 37.
          • June 1, 1982-July 16, 1982: 35 at time of Snap, 35 on October 17, 2023, 36th birthday in June-July 2024 after returning, so 36.
          • July 17, 1982-October 16, 1982: 34 at time of Snap, 34 on October 17, 2023, no birthday after returning, so 34.
          • October 17, 1982-May 31, 1983: 35 at time of Snap, 35 on October 17, 2023, 37th birthday in October 2023-May 2024 after returning, so 36.
          • June 1, 1983-July 16, 1983: 34 at time of Snap, 34 on October 17, 2023, 35th birthday in June-July 2024 after returning, so 35.
            • July 17, 1981-October 16, 1981 or June 1, 1982-July 16, 1982 or October 17, 1982-May 31, 1983.

      So, overall, July 17, 1981-October 16, 1981 or February 28, 1982-May 31, 1983. Preferably, for sake of ease, he would be both 36 and have had 36 birthdays, so June 1, 1982-July 16, 1982 or October 17, 1982-February 28, 1983.

      I've had an actual read of the site now and there's also mention that Spider-Man has been around for over 7 years. Over 8 years would be more fitting (depending on when exactly he became famous in New York City, late 2015-June 2016 when he started or after June 2016 once he had the Stark suit), but oh well, it's not wrong.

      And yeah, the Area 51 thing is a bit silly because it's someone likely not taking into consideration that it's not 2019 at this point in the MCU. But I guess it just happened in 2024 in the MCU. It'll be interesting moving forward when it comes to pop culture references to real world post-2018 things. We haven't really had any yet, but things from 2018-2023 very likely did not happen the same way in the MCU as the real world: film releases, song releases, things like the Area 51 event, etc.. I also wonder if they might slip up at some point and say something that doesn't make sense. We'll see.


      Spring 2018 Overlap (Nox23)

      Nox23 wrote: INCREDIBLE That's more than enough to go on, I can work out the scene by scene time-of-day stuff myself as i go.  It's gonna feel great getting back into the video editing and finishing that long stretch up

      Sorry it's so complicated, just the way it worked out. I'm glad I've helped, though.


      Captain Marvel Ageing (additional)

      I took another crack at Kree ageing and therefore Carol's age - more accurate this time by factoring in Carol and Ronan and not just going off Taryan and Faulnak, plus now having Avengers: Endgame dates for Carol - and got that Kree likely age about 0.17074 × the speed of humans, so Carol was born around August 7, 1964.

      This makes her about 24.9 at the time of her accident, 25.9 in human years in Captain Marvel, and 30.7 in human years in Avengers: Endgame.

      The flashback dates and other past dates for Captain Marvel will be going up shortly.

        Loading editor
    • Not particularly timeline related, but since we did post news and life updates on the previous 12 parts:

      Marvel got Spidey back for Spider-Man 3 and one additional movie. (And Feige also teased that Spidey might show up in the SONY-verse, but let's pray that it doesn't happen. Or that it's non-canon to the MCU.)

      https://variety.com/2019/film/news/sony-marvel-tom-holland-spider-man-1203351489/

        Loading editor
    • Yeeeeeeeeessssssssssss!!!

      (Not to the Sony's Universe part.)

      And July 2021 date as expected.

        Loading editor
    • BEJT wrote: Yeeeeeeeeessssssssssss!!!

      (Not to the Sony's Universe part.)

      And July 2021 date as expected.

      So that would make Spider-Man 3 part of Phase 4, right? Awesome. I wonder if there'll be a time jump between SM3 and FFH? There's no other huge team-up movie happening between them, so it could totally be immediate fallout.

        Loading editor