Talk: Johann Fennhoff

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Doctor Faustus

The following discussion is an archived discussion. Please do not modify it.

Renamed to Johann Fennhoff

I believe a rename of the article "Ivchenko" is inappropriate. The Creator of that particular character has stated that, though he modeled him after Dr. Faustus, he is NOT to be called Faustus. He created that the name purposefully to honor a hockey player (see Ovechkin trivia). I acknowledge that, based on the standards of this wiki, written by Shabook and approved his administrators, the name change fits. However, is it change for the sake of change? Will it improve the article? Can it not be acknowledged in the trivia section?

I ask the wiki community to vote on the name change of the article "Ivchenko" to Dr. Faustus. For the reasons above I am against it...Bratpack (talk) 23:21, February 21, 2015 (UTC)

Though I respect your opinion very much (you can be certain of that :), I think that changing the name of Dr. Faustus could improve the article in terms of comic-book lore. Though he isn't named Dr. Faustus in the show, it would be a lot easier for people not so familiar with the comics (just to complete, this is a DIFFERENT case, I would not want Trevor Slattery to be named Mandarin). Also, he was foreshadowed to be the character, but they are using the name of Ivchenko to not be "one-dimensional". Also, we could still use Ivchenko in every mention and as a tag to find the page. - User:Draft227 - 02/21/2015 - 21:17.

According to the policy, the page "should be listed by their Marvel Comics codename if it is either used as a proper codename or used as an alias for the character within the Marvel Cinematic Universe." Showing a book title does not seem to quality, if you ask me. DinoSlider (talk) 23:25, February 21, 2015 (UTC)

Every character taken from the comics and incorporated into the MCU is not a carbon copy of the comic character, and he is instead adapted to fill into the MCU. As such, and as I already explained, what the writer of the episode said is that they are not going to call Ralph Brown's character "Doctor Faustus" in the same way that Johann Schmidt is called "Red Skull" or Tony Stark is called "Iron Man". Bratpack, you have said that he is not the same character, and that argument is not true: he is Doctor Fennhoff, just like the Faustus from the comics, only given another name in the first episodes he appeared not to spoil his true identity, because if he had been called Fennhoff from the beginning, everyone would have known he was a villain.
To clarify, the habit to name the articles as their comic book codenames is not something that I've written, it is as old as this wiki, I merely collected it, trying make a guide on how to solve these kind of things, but what's the point of having a policy if it's not going to be followed?
Want some examples? There are many:

1. We have named Obadiah Stane's page as Iron Monger for his little quote, even though every other article calls him Stane.
2. We have named Carl Creel's article as Absorbing Man because he was casually called that once, even though every other article calls him Creel.
3. We have named Donnie Gill's article as Blizzard because it was the name of a project, even though every other article calls him Gill.
4. We have named Ivan Vanko's article as Whiplash because he was referred as such in some promo material, even though every other article calls him Vanko.

And this is e-x-a-c-t-l-y the same instance. The name of the article (an out-of-universe feature of the MCU Wiki) should be Doctor Faustus, even though the in-universe text of every other article should use the names Fennhoff or Ivchenko depending on if they talk of the events prior to meeting Private Ovechkin of the events after that.
And Dinoslider, your argument is something I've seen you doing more than once, it is called Wikilawyering, defined as "Asserting the technical interpretation of policies and guidelines to override the underlying principles they express." Shabook (talk) 23:57, February 21, 2015 (UTC)

So, I guess we'll change it? User:Draft227

No, if such a change will be made a vote has to be done. This Character, Ivchencko aka Fennhoff within the MCU isn't Doctor Faustus, only modeled after him. Because he isn't Faustus within the MCU I am against a change. Naming the Article Doctor Faustus would basicly be speculationTomasDerksen (talk) 00:31, February 22, 2015 (UTC)

Saying that Dr. Fennhoff is only based in the Fennhoff from the comics is like saying that Peggy Carter os only based in the Peggy from the comics... And this has been the policy of this wiki since its very beginning, wether you like it or notShabook (talk) 00:43, February 22, 2015 (UTC)

But the difference is, this time it is said by someone from Marvel it self. So why would WE go against people from Marvel who tell us that WE shouldn't call him Doctor Faustus? We work on a wiki based on the MCU, and therefore we should follow the MCU, and not just what we want the MCU to be. But I am not going to take a big part in this discussion, because that would be a huge waste of my time.TomasDerksen (talk) 00:47, February 22, 2015 (UTC)

I hope that by the airing of the season finale, that this argument is moot; so I propose that we have a vote until February 26, 2015 00:00 (UTC). (That's 7:00 PM EST) That time allows everyone to see it live, on demand, and other ways, to see if the name is verbally mentioned or if another like the showrunners mention it. Bratpack 00:52, February 22, 2015 (UTC)

Our policies are clear. The article is named after the character's comic book codename only if the character was called by that condename within the MCU. Since Fennhoff /Ivchenko wasn't called Faustus in the MCU, the article should stay as it is.--Uskok^{Hail HYDRA!} 08:24, February 23, 2015 (UTC)

As much as I want to call him Dr. Faustus, I belive we should respect the policy that the wiki has asked of us. So, I'm going to have to resist what I want and respectfully agree against Dr. Faustus. However, I am all for renaming the artical Fennhoff, considering that was his real name. Somethingman19 (talk) 17:52, February 23, 2015 (UTC)

After rethink about it, I actually noticed we need to follow the policy and let the article as it is (though I agree with Somethingman on Fenhoff).—Preceding unsigned comment added by Draft227 (message wall • contribs)

Is the Faustus method is counted as a mention? If it is, the article should be renamed, if it's not, then it should be Ivchenko, his most mentioned alias, with both Fennhoff and Doctor Faustus as redirects. Shabook (talk) 23:31, February 23, 2015 (UTC)

I think that you are missing the point. If I had not heard the audio file, and the article was changed to Dr. Faustus, I would have been fine. But upon hearing a Marvel Creator say that he did not want his character called that, I thought that his wishes should be respected. This wiki would not exist without them; why can't we respect their wishes for their stuff? We have actors (ex. Renee Russo) and others reading work; we can't show them love and respect for something they gave us? Chris Dingess said no; there should not have even been a debate...Bratpack (talk) 15:24, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

Well, given that the person who made the proposal is voting against his own proposal, what's the point of all this right now? Shabook (talk) 19:07, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

See how patience works? :-) I propose that, in the future (post 1946), Fennhoff will use the moniker "Faustus" while working for HYDRA. Then Whitehall will use the Faustus method. However, as of Agent Carter, he is still Ivchenko...Bratpack (talk) 03:27, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

he read a book written by Faustus, that is where he might get the "nickname" from TomasDerksen (talk) 03:55, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Actually, shouldn't the page be changed to Johann Fennhoff now? It is his real name and now his "current" name. DinoSlider (talk) 11:34, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Ask again in thirty-six hours...Bratpack (talk) 16:03, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

For the rename to Doctor Faustus

1. Nurdboy42 (talk) 01:10, February 22, 2015 (UTC)
2. OkCalis (talk) 18:26, February 22, 2015 (UTC)

Against the rename to Doctor Faustus

1. Bratpack (talk) 00:52, February 22, 2015 (UTC)
2. TomasDerksen (talk) 00:53, February 22, 2015 (UTC)
3. Babyrockhopper (talk) 01:04, February 22, 2015 (UTC)
4. MCUFFTW (talk) 01:14, February 22, 2015 (UTC)
5. Coluanprime (talk) 01:53, February 22, 2015 (UTC)
6. DinoSlider (talk) 04:22, February 22, 2015 (UTC)
7. KylieMfever (talk) 14:11, February 22, 2015 (UTC)
8. Somethingman19 (talk) 17:53, February 23, 2015 (UTC)
9. Draft227 (talk) 17:44, February 23, 2015 (UTC)
10. Professor Ambrius (talk) 17:12, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it.

He is Dr. Faustus

The following discussion is an archived discussion. Please do not modify it.

Renamed to Johann Fennhoff

It's official, in this Entertaiment Weekly article Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely state that Ivchenko is Dr. Faustus . With this evidence, I no longer see any reason not to change the name of the page to Dr. Faustus. Professor Ambrius (talk) 22:06, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

The producers have also stated that Bobbi Morse is Mockingbird, but that isn't enough for this Wiki to change that page name. I see no difference here. DinoSlider (talk) 22:20, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Where is it "official"? I read the article; THEY called him Fennhoff. The writers of the article, who don't count, called him Faustus. As part of the parameters of the debate (see above section), someone from MARVEL must call him Faustus.Bratpack (talk) 22:38, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

I just thought I was being helpful. Well I know better now. Professor Ambrius (talk) 20:41, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it.

Johann Fennhoff

The following discussion is an archived discussion. Please do not modify it.

Renamed to Johann Fennhoff

The character is named Johann Fennhoff in the final episode of the show, so can some admin change it please?--Milomilk was here 02:53, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

We will change it to Johann Fennhoff after the debate period is over in 21 hours. What is the problem with people here? Why must everything be done immediately without research on anybody's part? Sigh, I am...peeved. Let me sign out for the night...Bratpack (talk) 03:03, February 26, 2015 (UTC)

Just in case I was part of your frustration, I'd just like to point out that when I said "now" in my previous comment, I meant "now that we have seen the season finale" not "now, right this second." I fully assumed there would be another vote. DinoSlider (talk) 05:17, February 27, 2015 (UTC)

I am surprised. I said I had no objection to the article being called "Johann Fennhoff" since he was actively using that name in "Valediction" and the time limit of the debate has passed; yet no one has changed the name. I thought people would have jumped on that opportunity, since they were so...enthusiastic for a name change. What happened? Why is it not changed yet, 36 hours later? Bratpack (talk) 13:00, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

Because I protected the article against renames to avoid changing it back and forth before all these debates even began... Shabook (talk) 13:03, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I'll bite. I propose that the name of this page should be Johann Fennhoff. It seems clear the it is the character's real name, as noted in the infobox. If Doctor Faustus is not his codename, then the policy states that the real name should be used. Let's start the debate and see if we need to vote. DinoSlider (talk) 15:22, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

What's the point of having policies if there is need of a lengthy and often heated argument almost reaching the border of personal attacks to decide if it's going to be applied im each individual case? Shabook (talk) 15:42, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

In my opinion, we vote when WE AS ADMIN do not agree on the implementation of a policy. There was no need to vote on the Self-Heating Vest; we all agreed (I set up the talk page as an exercise for the future). There would not have been a debate if there WAS PATIENCE IN THIS WIKI...Bratpack (talk) 15:53, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

Here is what I see as the problem. There is a policy which, in my opinion, is pretty clear. Unfortunately, there are existing pages which do not explicitly comply with the policy, some of which have been around since long before the policy was published. Some of the criteria being discussed recently (published articles, producer quotes, etc.) are not part of the policy. I see two options. We either need to ensure that all pages follow the policy as written, or we need to revisit the policy. At least that's my two cents. DinoSlider (talk) 16:35, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

Money well spent; you are right. The recent listening of the podcasts (at least, by me) has changed the game...Bratpack (talk) 16:39, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

Bratpack, last time I asked someone for patience, I ended up being accused by him of having a personal grudge against him for undoing his edits until a proper discussion had been made, because, apparently, his stance of renaming an article four times in a single night was better, so, by the look of it, there is not and there will never be patience in this wiki.
Dinoslider, can you please write down in my wall the articles that do not match the policy? Because as you said, either the articles will be changef or the policy will be reviewed. Shabook (talk) 18:11, February 28, 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it.