Talk: Janice

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Name I[]

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Post-Archive Admin Addendum: Comment was initially deleted by Shabook without answer; restored for archival purposes {{{sig}}}

When was Janice ever indicated to be Janice Lincoln? How does this one add up? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lizard's Blood (message wall • contribs) (05:18 UTC, December 31, 2019)

I'm wondering too. Dimitri is also never confirmed to be Smerdyakov. I'm concerned with the factual accuracy of this wiki. BTW sign your comment. FlamingSnow122 (talk) 05:41, December 31, 2019 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it.

Name II[]

The following discussion is an archived discussion. Please do not modify it.

Post-Archive Admin Addendum: Comment was initially deleted by Shabook without answer; restored for archival purposes {{{sig}}}

Where did the addition of Lincoln to Janice come from? I haven't managed to find a moment in the film where she is referred to with the surname Lincoln. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lizard's Blood (message wall • contribs) (03:42 UTC, February 26, 2021)

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Name III[]

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Current name is the one that should have as of today in order to work with this wiki's main purpose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shabook (message wall • contribs)

There is no official source equating this character with Janice Lincoln from the comics. This is fanon that seems to have originated here, as every online source using that name for FFH character can be traced back to this. HBK123 (talk) 12:58, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

As you've been told in the past, this article's name complies with this wiki's Naming and Conjecture Policies.--Shabook (talk) 21:28, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

The policy states that "Conjecture is permitted in... ...the full names of characters derived from Marvel Comics." However, to presume that she is derived from the comics is a conjecture in itself. Janice is a common name and she has absolutely nothing in common with Janice Lincoln (Earth-616) other than vaguely opposing Spider-Man. To declare her the MCU version of the Beetle is pure unsupported speculation. HBK123 (talk) 21:58, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Articles like these are specifically the point of the Conjecture policy. Wikilawyering said policy, especially under the "Abiding by the letter of a policy or guideline while violating its spirit or underlying principles" meaning of the term. This article's name fully works with the purpose and scope of this wiki. What other wikis like the Marvel Database or any other site chooses to do with their articles in no way influences us.--Shabook (talk) 22:12, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

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Name IV[]

The following discussion is an archived discussion. Please do not modify it.

~~Simply put. This is not how this wiki operates. Read its policies.~~
Post-Archive Admin Addendum: Previous result summary written by former bureaucrat; untruthful statement.

During the above argument I also came across Janice Yanizeski / Joystick. Much like Janice Lincoln / Bettle, she is named Janice, is female, generally considered a villain and has opposed Spider-Man in the past. Is there anything that would point towards FFH Janice being one instead of the other? HBK123 (talk) 14:44, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there is any evidence other than the first name to imply that this is Yanizeski. Criszz (talk) 09:28, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

To clarify, I don't think there is any evidence to imply that this is Lincoln either. I don't know where that reasoning comes from. Criszz (talk) 16:38, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Assuming that she is Janice Lincoln makes no sense. While race-swapping exists in the MCU, switching someone *to* white is incredibly unlikely, especially given the significance of Beetle's father, Lonnie Lincoln (an albino African-American). Also, I read through the Conjecture policy and I don't know how this guideline supports the naming of this article. Leaving it under this name only perpetuates the fallacy that this woman is or was ever intended to be the MCU equivalent of Beetle, something that has no supporting evidence in any way. If we are to assume that she's supposed to be an Easter Egg character from the comics, Joystick, as HBK123 proposes, seems more likely based on the actress's race. Bastique * talk 06:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Support: I do not think there is any reason to conclude that this is Janice Lincoln. If we are to "Conjecture" any character, Joystick does make more sense, technically. She has had interactions with Spider-Man, she's teamed up with other villains in teams such as the Masters of Evil and Thunderbolts, her race fits, and seemingly most importantly for the Lincoln-argument, her first name is Janice. Really this character should simply just be "Janice" until he get harder evidence for any other surname or alias.--Uncleben (talk) 16:17, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

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Name V[]

The following discussion is an archived discussion. Please do not modify it.

"Janice Lincoln" will be renamed as "Janice" while "Janice Lincoln/Gamma Enhanced Happy Hogan" will become "Janice Lincoln" • MJLogan95 • Message Wall • Contributions 10:13, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Okay, let's do this one last time.

Janice is ex-Stark employee who appears in Spider-Man: Far From Home. No surname is given and broad conjecture was applied to give her the name "Janice Lincoln." Discussions to change the name were rejected by the former bureaucrat Shabook, who refused to budge or accept amendments to this. However, prior to the new administration shift, an episode in the second season of What If...? has a 'J. Lincoln' listed on Happy Hogan's phone. Many are of the mind that this now solidifies the FFH Janice's name as Janice Lincoln. Personally, I don't think it's so cut and dry. I think the FFH version should revert to just Janice, and the one on Happy's phone can either be J. Lincoln or even Janice Lincoln, the name Janice applying to this specific version via conjecture of the first initial. I do not think that one Stark employee's name being J. Lincoln confirms that FFH Janice is Janice Lincoln. Thoughts? • MJLogan95 | Message Wall • Contributions 17:29, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I do think that we are unfortunately stuck with this name now. While agree that prior to What If...? it would have been better to keep it as Janice, now that the episode has released, things are different. Janice in Far From Home is an ex-Stark employee who became frustrated with Tony around the same time as Beck, so between 2012-2016. J. Lincoln in the episode is someone associated with Happy Hogan in 2014 a time where Stark Industries is his only affiliation. Combined with the fact that Janice in Far From Home is a Spider-Man villain like Janice Lincoln in the comics, I don't think we have any room to stand on anymore saying it's not her. -Jessica3801 (talk) 17:37, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I will concede that as far as MCU is concerned, the name "Janice Lincoln" has now been canonized, which is why I won't push to change it further. I do however believe it would be both responsible and informative to explain in the Trivia section how the name came to be canonized and admit that the wiki was responsible for the citogenesis. Whether the writers of What If...? used the wiki for research is unprovable, but also irrelevant - FFH character being "Janice Lincoln" had spread far and wide to many online sources, but by tracking the datestamps all of them can be traced here. HBK123 (talk) 17:55, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I will state that I don't think Janice Lincoln is canonized, but that "Janice" is conjecturally applied to J. Lincoln. As per Jessica's point, while they are both Stark employees, Janice is a common name and I think the less speculative option would be to treat them as two Stark employees who had the same common given name. However, if everyone else is essentially accepting "J. Lincoln" from What If as being the Variant of Janice from FFH, therefore making FFH Janice "Janice Lincoln" then the proposal to amend and rename fizzles out. And should that occur, then yes I believe our Trivia section should denote that the name comes from citogenesis. Personally I am aware of at least one instance where a What If writer did look to the wiki, although I cannot divulge the specifics, but more importantly, that specific piece of evidence pertains to another episode. •

MJLogan95 | Message Wall • Contributions 18:02, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

People who complain about our decisions on Twitter/X have indicated (in the replies) that Janice Lincoln is not a white woman. I once again state that while I see the point of Stark employee J. Lincoln from What If being conjecturally tied to a Stark employee named Janice, I think it should not apply in this case. •

MJLogan95 | Message Wall • Contributions 20:30, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Like Jessica and HBK said, I see this name as canon now and we cannot change that. However, we should note in trivia. - Raff • Message Wall • Contributions 20:32, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Vote

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A vote has now been opened to settle the Janice Lincoln dilemma, so that we have an official ruling to fall back on (and possibly defend) this wiki's stance. To summarize the situation: Spider-Man: Far From Home featured an ex-Stark Industries employee called Janice. Our former bureaucrat had it listed as "Janice Lincoln" due to him wanting to use Conjecture Policy to give everyone full names, and many people were against it, although he refused to budge. For context, Janice Lincoln in the comics is a woman of color and Janice in FFH is not.

In the What If...? episode What If... Happy Hogan Saved Christmas?, a contact (who is presumably a Stark employee) on Happy Hogan's phone is listed as J. Lincoln. The What If writers most likely got the name from us and in a form of citogenesis, it was used to reinforce the status of FFH Janice. Certain users on the wiki believe that this confirms J. Lincoln on Happy's phone means FFH Janice must be Janice Lincoln, and the one on Happy's phone is her Variant. In other words, that it is too late to make the change. I however believe that there is still a way to reconcile it: I think we should list Janice (FFH) as "Janice" and the one from Happy's phone is "Janice Lincoln." No relation. I don't think the "J. Lincoln" in What If confirms the two characters are one and the same (Janice is a common name after all) even though the What If writers use our wiki.

So you have two choices below. Support means you support "Janice Lincoln" (FFH) becoming "Janice" while "Janice Lincoln/Gamma Enhanced Happy Hogan" becomes just "Janice Lincoln." If you vote Oppose, you support retaining the status quo. Regardless, this is a topic of discussion that required an official vote to proceed forward.

Support

I believe we should split the two character's relation and not retain You-Know-Who's demand that Janice from FFH is the MCU version of Janice Lincoln/Beetle, a woman of color. Even if the What If writers got the name from us. • MJLogan95 | Message Wall • Contributions 09:46, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
Obviously. HBK123 (talk) 11:14, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
I believe even with the wiki citogenesis that may (or may not have) occurred with What If...?, Janice should still be renamed. Put simply, the episode doesn't give the greatest benefits to us on the wiki but at the same time, while speculative, the J. in "J. Lincoln" could stand for anything. If we're going off comic solely for a name to match, yeah, Janice Lincoln fits. I would like to note though that Janice Lincoln (Beetle) in the comics does apply to Stark Industries to be the head of security (see here). We have no info on FFH Janice other than that she worked for Stark Industries as a scientist and engineer up to Tony's death. Considerably different from Janice Lincoln in the comics. Pr0tato210 | Message Wall • Contributions 11:27, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
I would like for this to be a fun easter egg to a comics character, but I mean, come on, nothing about this should have gotten to the point it did. There is no grounds for any of the "logic" that transpired about her being Beetle. Could the name "Janice" be a reference, possibly, we've seen that exact kind of reference be made before in the MCU, but to then just make the jump that a "J. Lincoln" is the same character is ridiculous. And no, I don't see how it's become canon just because we said so, that's literally not how canon works. - Bozz77 (talk) 11:43, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
I concur - E-Scope | Message Wall • Contribs - 01:23, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
I side with this. - Mister Explicit • Message Wall • Contribs - 12:33, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
I think neither option is any good really, but it makes sense to me to just separate them and leave it at that. I don't think a possibility of writers using the fandom database as a reference is relevant here. - King Nasara (talk) 08:24, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
While the What If reference likely is in reference to the character from FFH in accordance with what occurred on the wiki, we technically do not have any concrete evidence of that. As such, I think arguments that rely on that are inherently unfounded. We should assume that that is not the case for the purpose of this argument, and the choice is clear in that case. Rman41 | Blogs - Message Wall - Guestbook 06:09, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
Yeah I'm gonna have to go with this one. Neither are great but this is the lesser of two evils. DrewVeenstra (talk) 06:16, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
I agree with the proposal. David Kaique (talk) 07:07, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
To me having a "J. Lincoln" in WI does not confirm the Janice in FFH is Janice Lincoln. Speculation about where the WI writers got the name doesn't prioritise over our knowledge of what is and isn't shown in canon. MalchonC (talk) 10:20, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

If the What If...? episode What If... Happy Hogan Saved Christmas? hadn't released, I would agree that the page should just be Janice. However, I think that J. Lincoln being mentioned in Happy Hogan's phone is an intentional reference to the character from Spider-Man: Far From Home, who was assumed to be Janice Lincoln after the film released. I believe the name has now been canonized because of the episode and this page should remain as Janice Lincoln. - Fish Master 41 (Message Wall) 09:55, August 30, 2024 (UTC)
I oppose because I also think it's an intentional reference to the Far From Home character and we have to deal with our own mistake. - Raff • Message Wall • Contributions 12:15, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
I'm on the same page with Fish Master and Raff, because I think, the What If...? episode was referencing the same character from SMFFH. - - Farizhf27 (Message Wall) 18:14, August 30, 2024 (UTC)
This situation sucks. There is no good solution to it anymore at this point. I think our best course of reaction is to maintain the current page names and include a very tactful statement in trivia regarding the manner in which this situation came to be.
Edit to add my reasoning. J. Lincoln was very clearly because of us. There is no other reason to reasonably have Janice Lincoln be listed as one of Happy Hogan's associates in that episode other than quickly looking up Stark Industries employees and not thinking further into it. It's a sucky situation that was created here and I wish there were a better way to handle it, but with the release of the What If...? episode I personally feel like we are stuck with this name -Jessica3801 (talk) 23:07, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
I also think we are stuck with this. I would want the explanation in the trivia to be as thorough as feasibly possible so that new users, like those reacting on X, can read it and fully understand the situation/context in which it happened. I would feel a lot better with that caveat present. Criszz (talk) 23:42, 30 August 2024 (UTC)
I think we should maybe just keep it, as Criszz said. A trivia section like he additionally mentioned could also work. TeMrealofficial (talk) 01:32, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
As many others who oppose the rename have said before me, if it weren't for the What If...? episode I'd be completely for this rename but a certain someone's stubbornness has left us stuck with an unideal name for the character. I also agree with the user's above me that an explanation as to why the character is named this would be very helpful. - DemKnux (talk) 23:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
Logan asked me to break the tie, and I mean it when I say this was a very difficult decision to make. We (or really Shabook) have dug ourselves into a hole here, and the way out is picking between the lesser of two pretty bad options. Considering the writers of What If...? most likely used the wiki as a resource when creating the charatcer of Janice Lincoln/Gamma Enhanced Happy Hogan|J. Lincoln, that makes that character canonically a Variant of Janice Lincoln. Taking that, we make this character's last name "Lincoln". I know this decision has split the wiki, but I believe this is the way to resolve this while keeping the writers' decisions and canon in mind. - GarrettPlayzRBLX | Message Wall • Contributions 14:45, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

Result

Very close results, but ultimately the vote has ended with 11 in Support and 8 opposing. With the 1:5 to 1 ratio waived unanimously by the administration team, the outcome of this vote results in Janice Lincoln being renamed as Janice while Janice Lincoln/Gamma Enhanced Happy Hogan will be renamed as Janice Lincoln. • MJLogan95 | Message Wall • Contributions 10:13, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it.