Hey BEJT! :) I'm just messaging you to let you know there are two reference errors in the 2018 timeline. I did not want to try to fix them as I did not want to mess up anything and the timeline is familiar territory for you.
-Best Regards, Christhewalrus 03:36, January 14, 2020 (UTC)
So according to the writers, timelines don't split unless and until you remove an Infinity Stone. This means that everything happening in Avengers: Endgame before the removal of Infinity Stones from the different time periods also happen in our Main Timeline. But, before Rhodey took off with the Power Stone, Thanos came to know about the 2023 Nebula, when clearly in our Main Timeline, nothing of this sort happened. Also, in New York, Loki escaped with the Space Stone 'probably' before Bruce persuaded Ancient One to give up the Time Stone, when clearly in our Main Timeline, Loki didn't run off to anywhere. So, where do these changes fit in the Main Timeline?
I strongly believe that the 'Splinter ON Splinter' theory is correct in this regard.
As far as u/JawTitan012's question is concerned, I like to believe that Bruce and Hank would've formulated a way to get to the DESIRED alternate timeline, before Steve went on his journey.
On top of that, we don't know exactly how much time passed between the Avengers getting the Infinity Stones, and 2014 Nebula calling Thanos to 2023. Maybe upon returning back to the compound, Tony gave a little thought to Ancient One's warning and actually modified his Timespace GPS, which would allow them to choose between existing alternate timelines, instead of creating a new one every time they go back in time.
I wrote this blog to just start from scratch and assess every single piece of evidence, dissect it all, address the problems, what is most plausible, what is most supported. I've found the last 7 months of this discussion so stressful and frustrating on the wiki, it's been a really rubbish experience, so I had to write it all up to make sure I reached sensible and fully-assessed conclusions, and just have something to refer people to.
And came to the conclusion that yes, the writers are correct. I mean, it makes sense, the film presents it the way it was written by definition.
The problem of time being changed before the stones are removed is the only problem of any significance with the writers' explanation (which I don't even like calling the writers' explanation, it should just be called "what the film says"). And I agree with you, it's a problem.
However, the other explanations are way, way more problematic, as is explored in the blog above.
A potential solution to this single writer problem can be found in this section. It involves assumption, sure, but any explanation involves some assumption unfortunately - and this is easily the Occam's razor path of least assumption. And it makes sense.
That assumption about how to return the stones without splitting the timeline again is a big one. Firstly, someone arguing this is taking the point of view that Smart Hulk is talking about how time travel creates alternate timelines in his scene (which he isn't necessarily). In which case, you are accepting that "time travel always creates alternate timelines". Secondly, very little time passes before Nebula brings Thanos to 2023 (why would she wait, giving more chance to get caught?). Thirdly though, Bruce specifically promises the Ancient One there and then that they will be able to return the stones once they're done and undo any damage. He cannot promise that if they don't have that ability. It would just be very fortunate if then they managed to find a way to do that after the fact.
Hey not sure if this has been noticed but I've been using your notes from the Part 13 page to break down Punisher and Jessica Jones scene by scene and came across this issue:
Tuesday, May 8
The Punisher: 206 minute 26ish to end. Episode 7 beginning to minute 9ish.
Jessica Jones: 305 minute 33ish to end.
The section of the Punisher above actually spans 2 days. We go from a cafe scene in the morning to kidnapping the russian at lunch to Billy beating up the tow truck driver at night, followed by a scene in Curtis' trailer in the daytime and then the meeting between Frank/Madani/Curtis in the evening again to end episode 6 and bleed into episode 7.
Not sure if that would theoretically shift the rest of Punisher up a day or shift what came before back a day (really hope it's not the latter), or maybe I'm wrong and it's all moot. Just something I noticed and wanted to bring up as I get into all this craziness. Hope you're doing well!
OK I've taken a look. I had a scroll through my detailed notes and what the reasoning was for that being the same day, and I rewatched the relevant scenes. I can definitely see your point, the trailer scene and then the Curtis and Jimbo scene do kind of look like it's daytime outside.
However, the reasoning was because in the final scene of Episode 6:
Dinah: "Well, your s**t ended up on my shoe today. I've had Mahoney up my ass. And who the hell is this guy, huh?" (showing a picture of Pilgrim).
Frank: "He came at you?"
Dinah: "Yeah, he came at me."
This would mean that the scene about 28ish minutes into Episode 6 of Mahoney confronting Madani and the following events of Pilgrim following Madani were all that day, making minute 26ish to the end of Episode 6 all the same day. It's not 100% explicit, but it seems fairly clear to me that's what she's saying - why would she say "today" if nothing of note (nothing we've been shown) happened to her today? And the things she then mentions are those events, it would be odd for those to then actually be the day before if she's saying "today".
So that was the reason.
As well as this, Frank appears to be in the same clothes in the trailer scene as he was when he kidnapped Poloznev, and Billy is in the same clothes after Mahoney visits Krista as when he attacked the guy towing Jimbo's truck.
It would seem then to me that in the trailer scene it's a mix of lights outside (headlights/floodlights) and one of the small windows possibly also being translucent, so white-ish. It's not like light's streaming through the windows, there just seems to be a hint of light in the windows, but obviously the blinds are drawn and they have their indoor lights on. And the Curtis and Jimbo scene it's just lights in the corridor outside. Not ideal, but not too bad.
However, if you disagree, there isn't a drastic shift in things. The scenes establishing the dates come after this point, so that's the stuff that's set. So, the end of the episode is definitely May 8th.
And, in that final scene, Curtis says that Billy came after him "yesterday", so minute 22ish to minute 26ish are definitely May 7, 2018.
The only question is whether minute 26ish to the attack on the tow driver fall on May 7th or May 8th. In other words, is the jump to the next day after Curtis comes after Billy, or is it after the tow driver attack? And due to Madani's line, we took it as coming after Billy.
May 7th - Episode 6 minute 22ish to minute 26ish.
May 8th - Episode 6 minute 26ish to end. Episode 7 beginning to minute 9ish.
May 7th - Episode 6 minute 22ish to minute 26ish + minute 26ish to tow driver attack scene.
May 8th - Episode 6 trailer scene to end. Episode 7 beginning to minute 9ish.
And we're going with the first option due to Madani's line. But yeah, everything else in the season would be unaffected regardless.
No official word as far as I'm aware, but from the new trailer it looks like it can't be, as there's no place in the MCU timeline it could take place.
Before Civil War?
Spider-Man isn't friends with the heroes and doesn't have this suit, Wasp doesn't have her suit, Black Panther isn't friends with the heroes and doesn't have this suit, the heroes don't know Doctor Strange and he isn't a proper sorcerer yet, Hulk is off-world.
Between Civil War and Ant-Man and the Wasp?
Scott is under house arrest and not in contact with Hope, Hulk is off-world, the heroes don't know Doctor Strange.
Between Ant-Man and the Wasp and Infinity War?
Hulk is off-world, the heroes don't know Doctor Strange.
Between Infinity War and Endgame?
Spider-Man, Wasp, Black Panther, Doctor Strange, and Falcon are all dead, Hulk has stopped coming out and Bruce eventually becomes Smart Hulk, not normal Hulk.
Between Endgame and Far from Home?
Peter seems to use the Iron Spider suit in this time, Hulk looks like Professor Hulk rather than this Hulk.
After Far from Home?
Peter is a fugitive and his blue suit has been blown up/he has a black suit now, Hulk looks like Professor Hulk rather than this Hulk.
It would have to be set either:
Between Endgame and Far from Home and, without us knowing, it turns out Smart Hulk actually went back to normal Hulk in this time for some reason, plus Peter did in fact use his red and blue suit in this time
Some time after Far from Home, presumably after the events of Spider-Man 3 and Peter is no longer a fugitive, and for some reason he has started wearing a copy of his old suit, and Hulk has gone back to normal Hulk.
All of that is a lot of assumption, and would be bizarre.
Hello. Today I watched the final episode Agent Carter. I have a question. Is the document that Michael Carter steals is a document about him or is it written about Peggy? After all, M. Carter may be him.
Hey man, I've been working on school work and since that has taken a majority of my time, I haven't been up-to-date on the date placements. All I ask is why the 2018 dates on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. /Avengers: Infinity War dates are undetermined. (like the first date like this is like 3rd/17th. I'm assuming that the date is undetermined). Is the reason we haven't settled on a single date because of the Jessica Jones Season 3 placement (which I saw the vote. I was leaning towards april/may placement myself). Are we waiting on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Season 7 for a full timeline to work with? If you can remind my why that would be wonderful. Also keep up the good work you guys!
The reason was because of the Jessica Jones problem. The earlier in the year, the better for Avengers: Infinity War, with Spider-Man: Far from Home loosely describing it as halfway through the school year. If Jessica Jones: Season 3 was going to be November-December, then Avengers: Infinity War could come right after the end of The Punisher: Season 2. If Jessica Jones: Season 3 was going to be April-May, then the season ends in late May, so Avengers: Infinity War would have to take place 2 weeks later. So we had narrowed Avengers: Infinity War down to two possible placements, just not quite one. This also impacted Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 6.
Now, though, we just held the vote on what to do on Jessica Jones: Season 3, so in the coming days I should be able to make another edit to the 2018 page to update all those dates, and add the Jessica Jones events as placeholders until the full episodes are written up. So you should see an update very soon.
But yeah, it'll be the later option on all of those dates with two options, not the earlier one.
Thank you for the quick response BEJT! Your're definity faster then my professor. No but really though I appreiciate the work you guys do. Must take a lifetime and a half and you weren't even asked to do it.
Since the system over dates changed, where every date has to be only written to the level of certainty, I have been told that citations should be provided for the dates to explain their source, which made sense considering, for example, the citations for dates of birth, and the wiki policy of citations.
I agree it doesn't really clear things up. Some other uses started putting actual explanations, but were told to instead put citations purely for films/episodes/articles, as that's the way the citation policy works. So I prepare the most efficient usage of films/episodes/articles to provide the minimum required puzzle pieces to reference the date sufficiently, so that if a user really wanted to find out, they can find enough pieces in those references to work out where it's coming from.
I also agree the timeline pages are there for that information, but a while ago it was made clear that the timeline pages should not be a resource for factual information on the main articles. I'm fine with there being no citations on certain dates (still feel things like the Ancient One being 700 do need a source provided, especially since users have often in the past removed dates saying no citation is provided, but that was only since the citation was removed), I've just been trying to fix the policy.
Also, by the way, this isn't a recent thing. My cleaning up of the date sections recently has been more focused on consistency and removing fanon for the betterment of the articles. I noticed massive inconsistency with dates sections regarding the same season or film, with some people putting exact dates, some months, some seasons, some the part of the year, etc.. What I've been doing is, knowing the level of certainty of the dates, I've been putting the correct degree of accuracy and apply it uniform across the board, including making sure to remove fanon that's too accurate. The references were just part of that, making sure they were also consistent and well-done.
A couple of years ago when the system changed for dates on articles. It might not have also necessarily been directly to me, it might have been to other users who were adding full citation explanations.
Yeah, that was the sort of thing where I felt it was trickier too. But since the dates do provide a link to the timeline page, especially with the Before 20th Century page taking you specifically to that year, I can agree that it should be fine so long as that stuff is actually in the timeline pages.