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2071 the-avengers-prev

Alternate Reality for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Future

Now that Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D./Season Five is over, it is clear without a doubt that episodes Orientation Part One to Past Life all take place in an alternate bad future. That means that every character that first appear in them, such as Deke Shaw, Flint or Sinara are not from the main MCU timeline, but more importantly, the characters who got into that future by taking the slow path (Leo Fitz, Elena Rodriguez, Robin Hinton) are going to have different lives from now on, requiring to split their articles into alternate counterparts. Should we treat it like Framework and create alternate selves pages for everyone involved, including alternate histories of events, locations and objects? HBK123 (talk) 09:52, May 19, 2018 (UTC)

The only characters that need alternate articles are the ones seen in The Last Day, which includes Leo Fitz' version, and Robin Hinton. For now, the Fitz we saw returning to the past until The End will be treated as the one and the same in the main article. No other articles need splitting, items, events and locations, even the Lighthouse, don't need an alternate article. Use the Framework situation as a template for how to deal with alternate realities.--Shabook (talk) 11:08, May 19, 2018 (UTC)
There are however different articles for vehicles and locations of the Framework. There is a different article for the Zephyr One, for example. Or even Washington D.C.--Elledy92 (talk) 11:48, May 19, 2018 (UTC)
And what articles would need alternate articles? Certainly not the future characters. And not the items, because no matter their different history, items like the Odium are exactly the same item, unlike Framework items which were digital recreations, not the same item.--Shabook (talk) 11:59, May 19, 2018 (UTC)
I agree that items like the Odium or the Kree Battle Axe shouldn't be changed, since they are generic items. But important vehicles and locations like the Zephyr One of the Lighthouse should be splitted since they have a different story in the alternate future (the Lightouse being essentially turned into a space station).
Both the Lighthouse and the Zephyr One are the same physical items, with just another history in the ELE future.--Shabook (talk) 13:39, May 19, 2018 (UTC)

Also, What about merging all the timeline page after 2018 (related to this new timeline), into a single page about the events of the "Earth Destroyed Timeline"? --Elledy92 (talk) 12:05, May 19, 2018 (UTC)
Speaking strictly from an administrative POV, and not my personal opinion which I will keep for myself, timeline articles are fanon content right now, and all information is, or should be, available in the rest of well-sourced articles of this wiki.--Shabook (talk) 13:39, May 19, 2018 (UTC)
I don't understand what the answer is to the question about page-moving, though. Is there going to be one collective page as Elledy has suggested? And which point is the wiki considering to be the point of divergence? When the team return from the future, when Coulson decides to slip the Centipede serum into Daisy's gauntlets, or something like that? It can't just be that when the team transported into the future they went into an alternate timeline, because otherwise Fitz could not have slept 74 years from the present into that future. The White Monolith might be considered capable of switching between timelines, but going to sleep isn't.BEJT (talk) 21:06, May 19, 2018 (UTC)
And that is something that we won't know for now, and we will probably have to wait until Season 6, which means more than a year. Marvel's rules for future timelines are that every alternate future is set actually in an alternate reality. That the ELE future is an alternate reality is not questionable anymore...--Shabook (talk) 21:16, May 19, 2018 (UTC)
OK, I think I get you. What does ELE stand for? And what do you suggest should be the existing articles? For example: "2017" showing both "2018" and "Earth Destroyed Timeline" (or whichever title) as "After"? Then 2018 just including this timeline's events and everything going forwards, and "Earth Destroyed Timeline" including the way things went down in the bad timeline, and the 2091-set episodes' events? Or at the point of divergence in 2018 a note referring to the other page? Basically, do you have an opinion on which pages should exist, and how it should be structured?BEJT (talk) 21:23, May 19, 2018 (UTC)
ELE stands for Extinction Level Event. Timeline for the altenate future should be condensed into a single article, similar to Before 20th Century. Not sure about the name yet.--Shabook (talk) 21:34, May 19, 2018 (UTC)
OK, cool. Just say whenever you think of a title. The only thing I wouldn't use is "Alternate" or "Alternative" because that suggests it was never going to be the case - but it was the original timeline and this new one is the change, as shown by Fitz's sleep and Robin feeling the shift to a new timeline. I might suggest "Original Timeline Future" or "Destroyed Earth Timeline Future" or "Lighthouse Timeline Future".BEJT (talk) 01:18, May 22, 2018 (UTC)

That the future the S.H.I.E.L.D. team saw at the beginning of Season Five was bad, there's no doubt about that. But that it was alternate - nope! Technically, it was the original future, the future that happened, the future they lived in. By changing the past (defeating Talbot) they have created an alternate timeline, a timeline they're now living in.--UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters - Playground 13:28, May 19, 2018 (UTC)
Technically, if the current reality is going to still be Earth-199999 (which is a fact, as Marvel Studios shoots down anything so ambitious from Marvel Television), then the future where Earth is destroyed is an alternate reality with another numerical designation.--Shabook (talk) 13:39, May 19, 2018 (UTC)
I understand that Shabook, but I feel Uskok is right since Fitz fell asleep in the present day and slept through into the future. The White Monolith might be considered capable of switching between timelines, but going to sleep isn't. As well as this, Robin feels the shift from the original timeline to the new timeline. Is it possible however that since time is fluid, according to Simmons at the end of the episode, that Earth-199999 is the final, cemented timeline in the MCU, but the alternative futures essentially get discarded as different designations?BEJT (talk) 21:06, May 19, 2018 (UTC)

Alternate Universes

First hinted in the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. episode appropiately named What If... with the existence of a parallel universe manifested through the Framework, and then fully developed throught the Time Travel exploits both in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and Avengers: Endgame, the Marvel Cinematic Universe has finally introduced alternate universes branching from the main reality of Earth-199999, as officially designated by Marvel within their Multiverse system.

This has even been referenced in universe, with the quote by Deke Shaw:

"Well, actually, not according to the multiverse theory. You probably never heard of it, but in quantum physics, there's a theory that, for every universe, there are infinite parallel universes. So in my universe, you destroyed the planet. Maybe that just hasn't happened in...""
Deke Shaw[src]

Now, this brings a lot of questions for how to deal with this whole new situation within the Marvel Cinematic Universe Wiki. We have now seen different versions of our characters coming from different alternate universes

Considering that there is an entire new TV series bound to introduce a new alternate universe within each episode, there is the need to clarify how to proceed with some things, ideally, before this series premieres.

  1. Characters having alternate versions hailing from different universes. The two main ways to proceed are to have different articles for each reality, in the way the Marvel Database deals with them, or to have a "Tab system", similar to how the Mangog article is currently written now, but only for the biography sections where the counterparts' history is different.
  2. Pages for the different realities. They are currently summarized in the Time Travel article, but probably not the best way, given not every alternate universe is created through Time Travel.
  3. Other related proposals affecting the canonical articles of this wiki.

Please the comments relevant, concise and civil, in order to comment your opinions or proposals regarding this whole new topic--Shabook (talk) 17:07, August 27, 2019 (UTC)

  • This are my opinions and suggestion on the subject:
  1. About characters: i'm not fond of the Tab system, so i vote for a page for each alternate character (since an alternate version of the same character might have a different codename of the main one, like for example What If's 1945 Steve Roger who is gonna be Iron Man). The Character's biography starting from the point where it diverges from the main character's biography.
  2. Creating page for each reality shouldn't be a problem. The question is: what about the main one? As of today, the Earth-199999 page is more like a out-of-universe page, and analized the Marvel Cinematic Universe a multi-media. Should this be changed (separating the Marvel Cinematic Universe page with a new "Earth-199999" page)?
  3. Categories for characters of different realities: should we create them?

--Elledy92 (talk) 19:31, August 27, 2019 (UTC)

Regarding the tab system. I believe tabs should be used for universes branched out from the MCU, since they share the same history up to a point, before the character was essentially "split" into two. This effectively communicates the idea of the branched versions of the characters, while also meaning that there are no complications such as editing a part of, say, Gamora's biography from her past (before the split) and having to make sure the exact identical edit is always also made on her counterpart's page.

Meanwhile, for entirely separate parallel universes, entirely separate pages I believe would be fitting, such as the system used for the Framework (when connected to the real characters, just using their pages, when not connected, creating a separate page).BEJT (talk) 17:59, August 27, 2019 (UTC)

All universes are entirely separate. Every universe covered in this wiki, by definition, branches from the main MCU universe, in the sense that their history is identical up to a point of divergence, but they are separate and different.
All the universes seen in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., in Avengers: Endgame, and the ones currently hinted in the What If...? storylines, are an universe that shares its history with the main Earth-199999 up to a point of divergence.
Same happens to characters. They are not "split in two", they just share their biography entirely until the point of divergence.--Shabook (talk) 18:25, August 27, 2019 (UTC)
I completely agree with BEJT about the tab ideas (as I suggested in a previous discussion about this topic). It is the best way to handle the same character but in different timelines, as mentioned in the Gamora example above. However, this should only apply to characters in different timelines, not different realties.
For alternate realities, while I think that the system used for Framework characters could work and is probably the obvious and easiest way of handling it, I see some problems. The purpose of those "other uses" system is for versions of the chosen character that exist within that same world (Phil Coulson, but there is an LMD Coulson, a doppelgänger Coulson, a Chronicom LMD Coulson). I don't think alternate realties apply there, but at the same time am fine if that's how we approach it as I don't see another way to do so.
However, I think we need to see how they do the What If...? show before we can make judgement. Apparently each episode is just one change, which could mean that it shares a lot of similarities to the main reality. Would we have to write all that in? Would we also apply the tab system if it meant a different branch in the character's history? Too hard to say as of yet.--Bennyhef234 (talk) 21:06, August 28, 2019 (AEST)
Different Timelines *are* different realities, that's the point. If they have to be treated as separated from the main timelines, than the characters of that reality should get a separate page also. I honestly found confusing and counter-productive to have characters like Original Nebula and Alternate Nebula on the same page, due to the nature of their relationship. --Elledy92 (talk) 17:47, August 28, 2019 (UTC)
Creating different pages for different timeline/reality pages is probably the most accurate way to go, but I can bet that it would be very problematic to get control over and would likely be a big task that we could only intrust within high up users. However, I still like the tabs idea.--Bennyhef234 (talk) 17:08, August 29, 2019 (AEST)
OK well the idea that they're entirely separate universes and not universes splitting isn't what the MCU suggests, but I understand if it's what the Marvel Multiverse blanket rules suggest - anyway, that's sort of another conversation. Still, when it's universes where the divergence is due to time travel, there's a difference to just being shown a parallel universe where things were slightly different, in my opinion (though that opinion might be coloured significantly by my reading of the MCU dialogue, concerning "splits" in the universe/timeline when it comes to removing Infinity Stones in time travel). So if What If...? is just, "Hey, this is a universe with a similar history up to 1943, except in this one, Peggy took the serum instead of Steve and then things played out differently from there", as opposed to "The Avengers went back in time to 2012 and since they removed an Infinity Stone, split the universe apart" (how I see it), or "The Avengers went back in time to 2012 but could not land in their own universe's 2012 because you can't do that, instead essentially causing a copy-and-paste of the MCU as a new universe and then causing a difference from their arrival", or whatever, then there still seems to be a difference to me with one being a coincidentally similar entirely separate universe and one being a universe at least in some fashion created through time travel.
Unless Shabook is saying that every time they time travel they just happen to land in a universe that's already sitting there and just each time fortunately for them happens to be identical to theirs. Even then, there's still a difference with the connections between the universes by the time-travelling as opposed to entirely divorced universes, but you would have less justification for a difference in treatment. Though I would argue that the MCU Wiki should be allowed some liberty from the Marvel Database Wiki and, even if strictly following the "Marvel Multiverse" blanket rules, if this is what those rules are, should in formatting at least somewhat present it the way just the MCU alone has presented, even if it's sticking in actual writing to the facts of the "Marvel Multiverse" at large.
Anyway, I agree that it's hard to be talking about considering What If...?'s formatting so early. In which case, just focusing on what we have now, I would argue that the tab format suits everything so far the best.BEJT (talk) 14:33, September 3, 2019 (UTC)

I asked to keep the comments relevant and concise. This thread is supposed to be to decide how to proceed with character dopplegangers hailing from universes differents to the main one, not about opinions on alternate universes and timeline issues. All that to just say "tabs".--Shabook (talk) 14:53, September 3, 2019 (UTC)

Right, but the answer isn't necessarily just tabs, it's tabs for one thing and pages for another, and that relies on an explanation. The concision point was why I cut down the message to make sure I didn't get too sidetracked into what I said was "sort of another conversation", trying to talk the bare minimum about that while still communicating the relevant points and reasons why certain options work only under certain interpretations, while also responding to all the points. The message also said "other related proposals affecting the canonical articles", so I thought that delving into that a little while avoiding a proper conversation about it would be more than fine.BEJT (talk) 20:24, September 3, 2019 (UTC)

As an editor on several wikis, I am familiar with both approaches. Here's my personal feeling about it:

  • Tabs are used on the Star Wars wiki to differentiate between the old and new canon. The downside to having them is that some readers inevitably tend to miss them (especially on mobile), they aren't good for SEO because one version will inevitably be WAY more popular than others, and when something only exists in an "alternate" version but not in the main one, the abscence of tabs can create confusion as to where the subject belongs.
  • Most other wikis dealing with alternate realities use a cental portal for each subject with disambiguation pages for each reality (Marvel wiki, DC wiki, Transformers wiki etc). I find this approach a lot more flexible because it can be extended as required: what will the tabs look like after What If...? introduces 15 different versions of Captain America? The way Marvel wiki currently covers both Endgame and AoS Season 5 is already pretty self-evident and neat (that wiki's general sparse coverage of non-comics nonwithstanding). Also, it would be a bit ridiculous for this wiki to have separate pages for Framework characters and Fear Dimension Illusions (which by the way are are wrong: The Monolith creations are physical entities, not illusions; and the name Fear Dimension doesn't really apply to Izel's home planet - but that's a separate topic), but not for major Time-Travel deviations. HBK123 (talk) 21:44, September 3, 2019 (UTC)
That is a good point: What If...? could have multiple alternate versions of a character in the series, each different from the other. Would we then create a page for all 15 of them (for example)?

So, I don’t think I can suggest this enough, but the tabs idea seems the best way to go. In that way, if a character has the same up to a later point in their life, we don’t need to create a whole other page and then try and put in the respective character’s history that is the same as the original version. So when Cap doesn’t take the serum, we can put a tab at that section, which would then o for as long as it does, same for any other version that appears. However, this will be something that would have to be done by the trusted editors. And the tabs can be used for other version created for time travel, but I don’t need to explain why, I think we all get it. So what do we think about the tabs?—-Bennyhef234 (talk) 08:04, September 4, 2019 (AEST)

To summarise my point, it essentially boils down to: If it's an entirely separate universe, it should be a separate page. If it's a connected universe, it should be on the same page (tabs).
And this is mainly due to the fact that, the way the MCU has presented it, the 1995 Avengers: Infinity War Gamora flashback, for example, is canon to both Gamoras, because it's the same stem for both, only splitting apart (like in the Ancient One's diagram) in 2014. Not that it's only literally canon for original Gamora and just that identical events happened for new Gamora in her universe. Shabook disagrees, and that's where it got tricky, because my suggestion isn't just "tabs", it's tabs for a split character, pages for a separate character. But there seem to be some understandings where the character is in fact not split.
So then I was trying to find common ground nonetheless and understand this interpretation, to judge whether that interpretation still considers the universes to be created by the time travel, or if they just happen to land in identical universes, because it changes whether or not there should be tabs. And ultimately saying that, even if it's the understanding that they happen to land in identical universes, maybe even then it should still be tabs when concerning time travel because, while there might not be much of a difference in the actual mechanics between that and the way What If...? seems to work, there is still a little difference in there and to the reader, the way it is presented in the films, it still makes sense for format to present it like a split with time travel, but a separate page entirely with What If...?.
And that also, since all the things so far with different versions of characters are just to do with time travel, then all the things so far I would say should be tabs, at least for now. But with the conversation looking ahead, it's more complicated than that.BEJT (talk) 23:52, September 3, 2019 (UTC)
Every universe is equally separated, or equally connected. That is not a point. There are no "split or separate" characters. For every character, their backstory is the same. BUT THIS IS NOT; IT NEVER WAS, what is going to be discussed here. The question is how to deal with different versions of a same character, so, again, PLEASE, keep it concise, or we'll end this sooner.--Shabook (talk) 23:58, September 3, 2019 (UTC)
I know that's not the main point of discussion, which is why I'm not going properly into that topic and just skimming the surface of it. It had to be mentioned as it is relevant to the way the pages are laid out. As you say, you feel each universe is equally separated or connected, and that makes a difference to the suggestion.BEJT (talk) 00:14, September 4, 2019 (UTC)
It's not a matter of "I feel" or "I feel not". Facts are what they are. And each universe seen in MCU products is different. FACT.--Shabook (talk) 00:30, September 4, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with the tabs. As least that is a good start until we get a good grasp of all the facts. Season 7 could still change our facts even further.  DarkraiShadowXZ (talk) 23:38, September 3, 2019 (UTC)

For the ones that are for the tabs idea, please use Leo Fitz and create a mock-up version detailing the three different versions of the character. Use the User:Shabook/Leo Fitz link to create it.--Shabook (talk) 00:01, September 4, 2019 (UTC)

I agree that tabs would be the best way to go for Multiversal doppelgangers of characters. Even if time does "split" or was always a different universe is irrelevant, Captain America in every episode of What If... or in every timeline seen in Endgame all have similar histories to varying extents and in each universe are recognized as being the same person. In that case, having every single variation exist on the same article and only being visible through selected tabs seems like the best and most logical way to go about this. Blizzard1289 (talk) 02:35, September 4, 2019 (UTC)

The main argument against tabs is that right now each character has no more than 2-3 alternate versions and they can be made to look pretty neat. But what happens when What If? introduces 10-15 new versions for most of the main cast. How cluttered is that going to look? And even more importantly, how is that going to look on mobile devices? The current example of tabs on Mangog page already does not display correctly for me. HBK123 (talk) 06:49, September 4, 2019 (UTC)
If there are 10-15 versions of a character, then I imagine there would just be 10-15 tabs. It would only appear as 1 version at a time, so it wouldn't be too messy. However, I don't know what to tell you about the mobile devices.—-Bennyhef234 (talk) 17:45, September 4, 2019 (AEST)


That's a good point, maybe we could come up with only a fixed number of tabs? I.E. If a character has more than three alternate variations throughout the MCU then each new version gets its own page instead of a tab? Or another thought, we could just have one separate page dealing with all canon divergent versions of a character. For example, a page called "Alternate Tony Stark" that has different sections that each explain a different version of Tony Stark that's appeared in What If... or one of the films/TV shows, with the only other Tony Stark being the one that currently existing centered around the mainstream version. Blizzard1289 (talk) 00:21, September 5, 2019 (UTC)
Blizzard1289, that wasn’t my point. However, I have now just thought if we ended up having the alternate versions on the same page, how would the profile box look? I think we can have tabs for images, but I’m not sure about the other info.—-Bennyhef234 (talk) 15:42, September 5, 2019 (AEST)

What If? will also involve a lot of other stuff than just characters; locations, items, weapons, vehicles, etc. So you'll end up doing tabs for a potentially large number of pages. Dividing a huge part of the wiki into tabs sounds to me like too much work for just one animated series. Also, I think most of the time people come here to find info regarding things in the main timeline, not a short appearance in What If? that tells a different story. So I feel like the tabs system could sometimes confuse some people more. I don't know about other sources of different branches/realities/universes/alternate timelines, though they seem to have been dealt with pretty well so far, but for What If? why don't we just dump the events of each episode in one page and be done with it? If people want to check the alternate timelines, they go and find what they're looking for in the What If? page, and if they want to find info in the main timeline, which I think will be the case most of the time, they can find it just as easily without having to select tabs.--Mattcurrent999 (talk) 19:03, September 5, 2019 (UTC)

Alias delimiters

Can we separate all alias entries by commas? Many of the character articles have alias sections that are difficult to read because some alias instances are long phrases that take up multiple lines. Yuvi3000 (talk) 11:13, September 16, 2019 (UTC)

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