Talk: Candidates for deletion

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Kylosians

Name: Folie à Deux

The following discussion is an archived discussion. Please do not modify it.

Kylosians and Kylos are deleted. {{{sig}}}

As stated above, the name "Kylosian" originated in a fanfiction of all places and does not appear in any official Marvel sources (including the 2017 Telltale game, as far as I can tell). The name "Kathathian" however is directly used in its source as Drax's species name, seen here. If a conjecture has to be made, then "Kathathian" would be more accurate name, as it actually comes from Marvel, and not the user Alverrann of fanfiction.net. HBK123 (talk) 06:20, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with "Katathian". I will first ensure that the "Kylosian" example isn't codeified in the Conjecture Policy. I'll also leave this talk page open for a week to allow anyone else to chime in; should no one do so or should the edit not be contested, it will be treated as consensus if the two of us are in favor of using "Katathian" as the conjectural name. The only possible point of contention is that we tend to derive conjecture from sources pre-release of said MCU instalment, and Katathian came years after. But if there are no other names (and since MCU Drax is clearly not Arthur Douglas)... •   MJLogan95 | Message Wall • Contributions   15:37, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I am not okay with using Kathathian or Kylosian. His race should remain a mystery. I am not a fan at all of using conjecture for things that came after the characters debut in the MCU because conjecture is supposed to connect to what the writers are thinking. (e.g.: the writers obviously mean to be using Grandmaster which means his name is En Dwi Gast). When they created Drax for the MCU, they had no intention of him being Kathathian because that did not exist. - Raff • Message Wall • Contributions 16:02, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Discussion for this topic will be left open and put to a vote once our Conjecture Policy is revamped, but I wanted to note that the name Kylosian is not as speculative as the person who opened this discussion made it seem. Here is the full situation, using only information from official Marvel media and the wiki:

1. In 2014, the Guardians of the Galaxy movie releases and gives zero indication of the name of Drax’s species. I don’t know what’s up with the art book. However, Drax does refer to “Mount Kylos” being a place he went with his daughter in a deleted scene. In a trailer, Drax’s species is listed as “UNKNOWN” by the Nova Corps
2. In 2017, Telltale releases the video game Marvel’s Guardians of the Galaxy: The Telltale Series, a non-MCU video game that uses Drax being an alien (rather than in the comics where he’s human but weird) and lists his home planet as Kylos
3. In 2020, former administrator Shabook creates the page Kylosians on the wiki, citing the art book as the title. This is conjecture based on the Telltale game which is 100% allowed and in line with policy, aside from the fact that it extrapolates a species name using English conventions
4. In 2021, the video game Marvel’s Guardians of the Galaxy releases, in which Drax’s species is referred to as “Katatahians”
5. In 2024, HBK notices the page and asks for a source, seeing it originates from a fan fiction without official comment from Marvel and saying that we should not be naming Drax’s species based on the 2017 video game since it’s not MCU. This leads to discussions about it.

Drax's species should have a page, and the page needs a name. Referring to Kylos as the home planet is the least speculative option for the planet itself, the question becomes that of the species name. Personally, I am okay with Kylosians remaining. -Jessica3801 (talk) 16:44, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

My point of contention here is that I don't think we should be using the Telltale game as a conjectural source, and even if we were to take Kylos being his home planet via conjecture, the name "Kylosian" is not uttered anywhere; rather, it is a name unofficially being generated for a person of Kylos when for all we know they could be "Kylosers" or 'Kyloses". But yes, we shall put it a vote once the Conjecture Policy is amended to prevent such broad applications and allows for things to be voted on. •   MJLogan95 | Message Wall • Contributions   16:49, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree having Kylos as the planet and Katatahians as the species makes the most sense. (as a side note Conjecture Policy should be expanded to other article types so situations like this are more clear) DavisRanger (talk) 17:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

That would be the worst option, in my opinion. If the species is Kathathian, I would expect the planet to be Kathath as well. Per strictly MCU sources, Kylos is only ever a mountain. I don't think it's reasonable for planet Kylos to also have a Mount Kylos on it. HBK123 (talk) 17:47, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I mean I wouldn't expect the state New York to have a city called New York City but here we are. And isn't it odd that Humans live on Earth and not planet Hu? -DavisRanger (talk)

I mean, we are Terrans who live on Terra. •   MJLogan95 | Message Wall • Contributions   18:27, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Jessica that because of Mount Kylos being explicitly mentioned, lends itself more credence to the planet being Kylos](which has been the name of the planet in other Marvel products) instead of Kathath. I think by extension referring to the species as Kylosians would be the best way to handle it. I'm not even entirely certain "Kathathian" as mentioned in the clip above is even referring to Drax's species at all. Rocket says that the people that captured them let them keep their weapons to which Drax replies "They demonstrate their lack of fear. It is a proven battle tactic. Katathian warriors often ride into battle completely naked.". - Fish Master 41 (Message Wall) 21:21, August 21, 2024 (UTC)

There is an argument that we should not be using species name we created ourselves. Kylosian is not an official name, even if we use conjecture to say he's from Kylos. There's nothing stating someone from Kylos is a Kylosian. In any case, a vote will be conducted once the Conjecture Policy finishes its review. •   MJLogan95 | Message Wall • Contributions   21:26, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

To counter Fish Master 41:

• Kylos has not "been the name of the planet in other Marvel products" other than the Telltale game. In terms of mention frequency, it's a toss-up between Kylos and Katath.
• I only linked that one clip for convinience. The game itself makes it clear that Katath is the planet and Kathathians are the people.
• The existence of Mount Kylos makes the planet name also being Kylos less likely, not more. HBK123 (talk) 21:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Having played the Square Enix Guardians of the Galaxy game, I can confirm that Drax's species is indeed Katathian in that game. •   MJLogan95 | Message Wall • Contributions   21:47, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I will say that Kylos is likely to stay as the planet name. Kylos being a term used in the MCU makes it the better conjecture for our purposes, since there is in-universe justification. Just like Sakaar has Sakaar City, it is better to use the term that is already being applied to the MCU version. -Jessica3801 (talk) 16:32, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with all of this to be honest. All we know is that Drax's planet has a "Mount Kylos". That is not confirmation towards the name of the planet and is definitely more unlikely for it to be the species based off that. I also do not agree that we should use Kathathians because that came from something following his MCU debut. Like I said above, conjecture should work to fill in the blanks of the writer's beliefs. So if a name came from after they created the character, it should not be used as conjecture. - Raff • Message Wall • Contributions 02:43, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Vote

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Well, here we are. Time to vote on it. Just to clarify some "ground rules": we are not using Kylosian to refer to his species, because it is a name generated by us. A denizen of Kylos could be called "Kylosers" or "Kylosese" for all we know. If the term "Kylosian" was ever used, then there's a case for using Conjecture and applying it, but that isn't the case, and after the Janice incident, we don't want to have a name coined by us used so broadly it ends up being used in an official capacity and cited back to us. So where does that leave us? A few options.

Option A: We continue to treat Kylos as the name of the planet Drax hails from, since the name was used in a Telltale game where Drax is an alien rather than a human, indicating it's based on MCU Drax and not the human Drax from the comics. However, we will no longer list Drax's species on his page, since the game never mentioned a name for his species. The page currently named as "Kylosians" will be deleted and all instances of "Kylosian" removed across the site. Should we find out a canonical name for his species later, the page can be restored and renamed appropriately. So the planet page will continue to exist, but the species page will be deleted.

Option B: We do not treat Kylos as the name of his home planet. With this option, both Drax's species and citizenship will no longer be listed on his page as we have no name for the planet or the species, and therefore we have nothing to name a page after. The pages "Kylos" and "Kylosians" gets deleted, and should canonical information surface in the future, the page(s) will be restored and rectified appropriately.

Option C: Drax's species and its corresponding page is renamed to "Katathians", using the name from the Square Enix game. However, the planet's page name can be retained as Kylos; as such, the situation will be treated similarily to Halfworld/Counter-Earth, where we have two names for one planet. Just like how the Counter-Earth page states that Halfworld is another name for it, we do the same for Kylos, stating "Katath" is another name for it. Just like how we use the term "Halfworlders" to refer to the citizens of Counter-Earth (the primary name) we use the term "Katathians" to refer to the people of Kylos (the primary name). Or we can also choose to name the planet "Katath" instead, but that can be decided after. This option allows for the species page to exist.

Option A

• I'm here. Kylos is definitely within acceptable conjecture because of the Telltale game. -Jessica3801 (talk) 17:18, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Option B

• Any other option results in conjecture being used too broadly. It's not even the sort of conjecture where we're using names from comics; Katath at least can be sourced to a video game inspired by the MCU version (but not based on) but Kylos/Kylosian is just us assuming/creating information on our own whim and then using it across the site as if it's canonical information. •   MJLogan95 | Message Wall • Contributions   15:45, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
• Conjecture is used for the purpose of filling gaps the writers intended. There was no name of his planet when they were creating this version, therefore, no name should be used. - Raff • Message Wall • Contributions 15:46, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
• I’m inclined to feel the same way - E-Scope | Message Wall • Contribs - 16:17, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
• I support this option. Applying conjecture to non-comics material opens up a whole can of worms that we don't need to get into. - DemKnux (talk) 16:28, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
• As expected. HBK123 (talk) 17:04, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
• I support Option B. I am not comfortable at all with the planet being named Kylos due to the extremely limited and deliberately ambiguous information presented to us within the franchise about Drax's home planet. I think the solution offered by Option B is the most straightforward and least confusing/speculative of the three options provided, and for those reasons, this has my vote. - Mister Explicit • Message Wall • Contribs - 19:13, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Final Comment

Following a week of voting, it has been decided that Kylosians and Kylos do not fall under conjecture and are thus deleted. - Raff • Message Wall • Contributions 23:52, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it.