Time Heist

So, most of the time heist that we see in endgame was supposed to happen, right? but not Loki's escape. so, in the actual sacred timeline, the avengers would have gotten the tesseract and left. however, they were forced to go to camp Lehigh. so the Lehigh heist would not be part of the sacred timeline. but it must not have deviated enough to be pruned. because iron man later died, his conversation with his dad must not have caused any branches in the present. and this must mean that cap would have gone and lived with Peggy even if he never saw her at camp Lehigh. otherwise him getting old would have caused the timeline to branch and consequently get pruned.

I just rewatched Endgame, and I have a question.

When Iron Man, Captain America and Ant-Man travelled back to 2012 to retrieve the Space and Mind stones, the TVA didn't arrest them because "It was supposed to happen" (I don't understand that either, but that's not my question). But then the mission went awry because Loki ended up getting the Space stone and teleporting to somewhere else. This messes up with the Sacred Timeline, so the TVA intervene.

But here is the part I'm confused about. Captain America and Iron Man must go back in time even further to get the Space stone, to Camp Lehigh in 1970. But if Loki wasn't supposed to escape with the Space stone, then Tony and Steve aren't supposed to go to Camp Lehigh. And if they aren't supposed to go back to 1970, this messes with the Sacred Timeline, and the TVA should have arrested them.

So I guess my question is: How does this work? Why weren't Iron Man and Captain America arrested by the TVA?

Sorry if this doesn't make total sense by the way.

Im rewatching Loki and I never paid attention to this detail until now, but how did Loki know the Avengers travelled through time when he didn't see any of them (aside from possibly Ant Man pushing the case away but he never met Ant Man)?

There’s a continuity problem in Endgame, more precisely on the time heist scene to New York in 2012, and even more precisely, Captain America suit.

The exact moment when they go to steal Loki’s Scepter, that contains the Mind Stone, is after the battle Chitauri army. Battle which Captain lost his helmet and got a shot in the guts, without getting severely injured, creating a hole on his suit.

IN OTHER WORDS: Captain variant should have the suit damaged from the battle of New York, but for some production mistake, the variant appears with suit looking like brand new and with the helmet.

When will we be making articles for the alternate timeline characters we see in the Time Heist? Aside from Loki/Time-Traveler, they're the only ones who have gotten shunned from receiving new articles instead of being shoved into the mainline character articles, and it's weird. What are we waiting for?

Since there's a concept art that depicts Cassie Lang actually using a suit of her own, But it didn't happened in the actual movie. How would the 2 movies(Ant-Man and the wasp and Endgame) change if she get an similar suit like her father ?

How would Cassie interact with the Avengers

https://screenrant.com/ant-man-wasp-concept-art-cassie-suit-stature/

A time travel conversation on trying to figure out the rules of it in the MCU (going off Marvel Studios' properties, thus excluding Marvel TV rules for the sake of the conversation). If anyone wants to join and/or enlighten me, by all means! :)

Time travel can be very confusing. When Avengers: Endgame came out, there was many a discussion about how it really worked, and who did what, etc. However, many of our users seem to believe that A) the timelines the Avengers visited in Endgame always existed as parallel universes, or B) The Avengers went back in time, and in doing so created an alternate timeline/You cannot go into the past without immediately causing a branch. If I'm not mistaken "B" is what is used widely here on this Wiki, thus treating Hulk's conversation as being with an alternate Ancient One, as opposed to the main one, same with Thor talking to his mother; the wiki considers it to be an alternate Frigga, of an alternate timeline ("2013/Time Heist") created by Rocket & Thor.

However, the first Loki episode ("Glorious Purpose") informs us that there is one timeline (The Sacred Timeline) and that any branches formed are deleted before it reaches the Red Line, after which it cannot be erased. That first episode also has the TVA state that the branch in 2012 occurred after Loki escaped with the Tesseract, thus making it sound as if everything before that (Ant-Man giving Tony cardiac issues, Cap fighting Cap, Cap saying "Hail HYDRA" in the elevator) was all part of the main Sacred timeline. ... How is that possible?? HYDRA agents like Rumlow & Sitwell clearly never had Cap (Steve Rogers, obviously) tell them that in 2012 in the main timeline, as it would contradict the events of Captain America: The Winter Soldier two years later.

The second Loki episode ("The Variant") reveals even more. Going back in time does not automatically create an alternate/branched timeline. So you can indeed go into the past and under a specific set of criteria, not branch out. Loki & Mobius go into the past of the main timeline, to 79 A.D. and witness the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in Pompeii. And as Mobius discovers, this does not branch the timeline. Loki even says he could go to Asgard right before Surtur initiated Ragnarok & knock Hulk off the Rainbow Bridge (which obviously didn't happen in Thor: Ragnarok) and that, due to this little 'loophole', it would not branch out the timeline whatsoever but would be part of the Sacred one.

This, coupled with the Loki episodes revealing that the 2012 branch started when Loki escaped with the Tesseract and not when the 2023 Avengers arrived there, could also mean that Rocket & Thor, having arrived in Asgard right before the Dark Elves' attack, were free to do whatever and it would not branch out the timeline... meaning that there is no 2013/Time Heist timeline, and rather Thor & Rocket had gone to Thor's actual past. I feel like someone's gonna say "Well, maybe the Dark Elf attack isn't an apocalyptic event" but the TVA report file list the the D.B. Cooper hijacking somehow counts as apocalyptic (somehow)... so if that counts, so would the Dark Elves' attack on Asgard, I'd say.

Speaking of going to the past, there's Steve Rogers. It is a travesty that both the directors & writers of Endgame cannot agree on how his story ended. The writers are adamant Steve went to the past of the main timeline and lived a life there, in the shadows, and that he was always Peggy's husband. The Russos state that Steve went back to the 40s and immediately branched out, free to live a life & change history as he saw fit. I don't see Marvel Studios having a "third party" (be it Kevin Feige or one of their shows) clarifying this, hence why The Falcon and The Winter Soldier never addressed it either. Heck, they didn't even tells us what happened to Steve after he came back & gave Sam the shield.

However, with what we've seen so far from Loki, it seems implausible Steve's branched timeline could go on for 70 years without nearing Red Line. The 1985 Wisconsin branch in The Variant began to near Red Line in about an hour or so (judging by the weather outside and the Renaissance Fair still going strong) so it's not like the TVA could've allowed Steve to live in a branched timeline, wait until he returns to the main one as an old man, and then prune the branched one he lived in. It also seems probable that Steve could have inadvertently found a similar loophole as "The Loki Variant" and found a way to go into the past of Sacred Timeline without branching off or alerting the TVA, thus they remain unaware of his actions.

So, to "sum" it up: At the moment, the wiki is operating under the rules that 2012/Time Heist formed when the Avengers went back in time, but the Loki show reveals that the alternate timeline didn't exist until Loki escaped with the Tesseract. How then do we sort out the Avengers Time Heist stuff that occurred before Loki's escape, as it would suggest it was part of the main timeline? Also, If you can go to the past right before an 'apocalyptic' event, then did Thor & Rocket go to the actual 2013 past & speak to actual Frigga, instead of creating 2013/Time Heist?

Season 5 and up ruined it for Agents Of Shield. Time travel is no good for programs or movies unless it's done right, like endgame did.

So both the aether and orb were on knowhere in 2014, so why didnt the avengers go later than when quill went to the planet the orb was on and skip the asgard trip altogether?

When people time travel that creates an alternate timeline(At least in Avengers: Endgame) and that made me wonder: Do all timelines progress at the same speed after they were created? (just to clarify Main Universe's present would be 2023 and Time Heist 2014's present would be 2014 and when one second progresses in one that would also progress one second in the other.)

And if the answer is yes here are my questions:

Tony Stark's funeral seemed to be at least a day after The Battle of Earth. And Captain America's return of the items happened at least right after so does that mean the other timelines were without those items for at least a day? Or did he create more timelines by returning them a second after they were taken? Or does making a new timeline thing only matter if your time traveling in your own timeline? If the answer to the last question is no, and yes to the very first one then wouldn't he create a new timeline by going to the Main universe's present after spending his life with Peggy Carter in a new timeline? Please I need answers.

Remember Endgame? That cinematic masterpiece? One plot hole I have not internally justified (and believe me, I justify lots of plot holes) is: How did the Avengers get the space stone back in the Tesseract to give it back to the 80s SHIELD? Anyone?

I've been thinking, in Avengers: Endgame, they create all those branch timelines and one of them is the 2014 one in which they steal the Power & Soul stones (before Steve returns them). However, the Thanos that the Avengers fought at the end was the Thanos from this branch 2014, meaning that this universe no longer has a Thanos, a Nebula, or a Gamora.

Thanos and all of his forces have been removed from this universe. That should be great right? But in removing Thanos, this universe may have been doomed to a fate worse than Thanos -- Ego.

In Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, we know that Ego had a plan to kill not half the universe, but everyone, save himself and Star-Lord. Now obviously, his Expansion plan wouldn't have affected people in space ships, and he only had extensions on thousands of planets, but a ton of individuals still would have died in his first wave of expansion if it had been successful.

In the original universe, Ego was stopped by the Guardians. but in this alternate 2014, the events that led to the Guardians forming has been disrupted.

As we all know in the original universe, Baby Groot was small enough to plant charges next to Ego's brain, and those charges were powered by batteries Rocket stole from the Sovereign. But they only went to the Sovereign because they got word that Nebula had been apprehended there and Gamora wanted to be the one to turn her in for the bounty.

Obviously, now there's no Gamora or Nebula. Assuming Cap does return the Orb, Star-Lord has still been delayed in his mission. We know Korath was right behind him, so if Quill stays knocked out for a little bit longer, then Korath might be the one to steal the Orb. If that happens, assuming Korath doesn't kill him, Star-Lord (and Berit) are found on Morag by Yondu, who doesn't put a bounty on his head. Star-Lord never goes to Xandar the day Rocket & Groot are there, and there is no skirmish landing them in prison with Drax. Korath would take the Orb to Ronan, who would no longer have to kowtow to Thanos, meaning Ronan would put the Orb in his staff, like he did, and invade Xandar that much earlier. Only this time, the Nova Corps would be caught off guard by his arrival, and they'd have to face him without help from the Ravagers and Guardians. Ronan would probably be successful in destroying Xandar, since Star-Lord wouldn't be there to distract him and destroy him with the Power Stone.

Of course, Star-Lord's use of the Power Stone was what drew Ego to him in the first place, so if he doesn't use the Power Stone, then Ego might not find him that quickly. It may be decades before Ego runs into him, if he does at all. The universe may be safe for a while yet!

But if Ego does meet Star-Lord, then the universe is in grave danger. Now granted, Gamora was the one who initially encouraged Star-Lord to trust Ego, so without Gamora, he might not take to Ego so quickly. But if Star-Lord finds himself on the run from Yondu, or the law, or both, and he runs into Ego then, and Ego presents himself as his long-lost father who can get rid of all the A-holes chasing him and make him safe forever - then Star Lord might just be willing to join him. We know that Ego had Star-Lord all but indoctrinated until he let slip that he killed Meridith. But even after Star-Lord turned against Ego, he was still no match for him and Ego simply used him as a battery, a process which only stopped when Yondu crashed right into Ego's avatar (and Yondu was only there because Rocket told him the other Guardians had gone to Ego). Yondu was also the one who told Star-Lord he used his heart to power the arrow, thus insinuating that Star-Lord could control his own power by using his heart, rather than only his mind, which he does.

But without Yondu's guidance, Rocket's stolen bombs, or Baby Groot's ability to place the bombs this universe may be in for a much darker fate than even the main universe experienced.

But what do you think? How do you think events would have played out in this new Thanos-less 2014?

Kang is a time traveling being from the future and was in many of the comics. Now that Avengers Endgame introduced time travel, do you think he will come in the future? What do you think?

Could we see Thanos again in Loki? Nope. Probably not. But I had an idea...

So in the Loki TV series, which takes place in the alternate 2012 timeline, Thanos and the Black Order are still around (only the alternate 2014 version was killed), and so are all the other heroes who have died before Endgame besides Phil Coulson at the moment. I just thought of something really important I am not sure many others have thought of. So, remember, the Tesseract is a really important and powerful object. I am sure it will be a really big and important part of the series itself. But others will be looking for it, and after this all of the Avengers- especially Thor- might have a bigger problem- to find Loki before he causes more mischief? Okay- let's get back to the present- this is not the somewhat mischievous hero Loki has become by Avengers: Infinity War- this is the Loki who is fresh from almost destroying New York, and full of revenge on his brother Thor. Remember, he was working for Thanos before. So, will he give the Tesseract to Thanos and that's it? Probably not, though if he still has the Tesseract by the TV series, Thanos is still looking for it- so will he have a run-on with Thanos and the Black Order, Ronan or anyone else? And meanwhile, Thor and maybe the rest of the Avengers will be looking for the Tesseract. So, what happens next? Well, we know that the TVA gets involved, along with a character played by Sophia di Martino (as seen in set photos) and maybe Roxxon. So, maybe they will somehow avoid Thanos and the Avengers and get out of this without seeing them at all. But remember, this is not your normal MCU TV series, this, along with all the Disney+ series, connects to the films and other TV shows in great depth, and maybe, just maybe, he will see at least Thor (maybe Sif), and some other Avengers. Heck, we could even see Gamora, Nebula or even somebody like Odin or Frigga. As you can see, this is getting messy, so let's cut to the chase- there seems to be a good chance that this could happen. It is all a theory, and theories can be right or wrong, or partially both, but in my opinion it seems like a good one, as the events of all the other films will be affected- maybe not so much Iron Man 3, but definitely The Dark World, GOtG, Age of Ultron, and basically every film after that, as well as Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and Winter Soldier if you think about it. Because of this one little change, the entire MCU will change, and we really don't know how. So, really, what will Loki bring for us? Well, as a fan and a theorist, I think that somehow Loki is going to loop back into the movies by somehow connecting with either Doctor Strange 2, Thor 4, or both, which equally would make sense. Loki is one of the heroes, as well as Nick Fury and Phil Coulson, who it seems to be hard for the MCU to really let go. He is a fan favorite, and I am pretty sure he won't be gone for a while. So, what do you think? Discuss your feelings and thoughts in the comments below!

Loki stars Tom Hiddleston (Loki), Sophia di Martino, Richard Grant, Gugu Mbatha-Raw and Owen Wilson and will be out on Disney+ in Spring 2021!

Continuing the "Scene Discussion" is the important moment between Tony Stark and his father Howard, who he encounters in the past, allowing him to solve any issues had with their relationship.

Let's discuss! How do you feel about this? What was your favourite moment of the Time Heist? Did this scene help in completing Tony's arc?

Leave your thoughts on this down below, and make sure to leave any suggestions of scenes that you would like to discuss in future posts.

Only mods can edit pages, right? Because I wanted to add something to the Time Heist page, because theres a little mistake there. A new reality get's instant created if something differs from the parent timestream, not only if an infinity stone is removed or a Loki takes the Tesseract. Their pure arrival created new realities, they shouldn't even be able to defunct those by simply returning the stones, but, this is rather a plot device, so that is non-discussible. (Yeah this is a really minor thing but I want at least one source to keep it right). Saw this on the Loki Show page too.