<p>The result of time travel will fall on the shoulders will fall on those will produce time-travel related stories and multiverse story in the MCU in the future. I hope they'll use it wisely, but Marvel Studios have shown that they sometimes tend to forget their own "rules" for the sake of narrative (which i, with the passing of the years, tend to be more lenient about it). </p><p>Did any of you remembered that Asgard was meant to be in another dimension in <i>Thor</i>? </p>

<p>^THIS. It all depends of the story and what it is wanted. </p><p>Now that I think about it, Asgard is like its "own" dimension, as Hela draws power from there. </p>

<p>Wasn't it specified in that campfire scene with Thor and Jane that in the MCU the Ten Realms are just planets in different galaxies tied together by a network of wormholes? (The Tree of Life) </p><p>They're definitely pocket dimensions in the comics, but I don't think the MCU ever tried to claim the realms were dimensions. </p>

<h3><span class="mw-headline" id="Lincoln_.28Mrmichaelt.2C_Brett3801.2C_Marvelus.29">Lincoln (Mrmichaelt, Brett3801, Marvelus)</span></h3> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Mrmichaelt wrote: According to an old file I had it noted a April 17, 1985 D.O.B. was on Lincoln's I.D. badge but I didn't have a reference. But an I.D. badge would likely narrow it down to the season 3 premiere "Laws of Nature" when Lincoln was working at the hospital but since I didn't denote the episode, it's likely there was a social media post of his I.D. badge around the time the episode aired or a hi-res still from the episode. Still there's only really the opening hospital scene or the montage as President Ellis is giving his speech about the ATCU and the hospital worker shows Rosalind and Banks either Lincoln's photo or credentials (I don't know off the top of my head) where that info could have appeared on-screen. </p> </i></div>
<div class="quote"><i> <p>Brett3801 wrote: Regarding your points separately: </p>

• I rewatched all of Lincoln's scenes in <i>Ascension</i> and found absolutely nothing indicating any sort of birthday for him. I even watched the scenes after his death thinking they might have had an obituary or something, but no such luck. Based on Mrmichaelt's post, I checked out his scenes in <i>Laws of Nature</i> as well (the only two I could find were Lash attacking the hospital and Banks showing the picture, no credentials) and once again found nothing. There was also no social media post about him that season on Instagram. However, I do trust Mrmichaelt's notes, so for now I say we stick with that birthday unless somebody has a better suggestion.
• I'd argue for you being correct. The car crash is definitely after his 18th birthday (April 17, 2003) and he was definitely in Afterlife at least a year before Daisy got there (April 17, 2015, so arriving no later than April 17, 2014). Giving us a huge time gap to work with, hence my point about flexibility regarding the amount of time between events that I previously stated.
• Yes, James had to leave before Daisy's April 17, 2015 arrival. They were seemingly close friends.
• Lincoln's Terregenesis has to be after James Leaves, yes because of James' surprised reaction to Lincoln having powers. The exact quote from James is: "I'm sorry, I just can't get over the irony of this whole situation. Jiaying elected to give <i>you</i> powers?... Makes me wonder what you've been giving her." The grossness of that joke aside (although it's hard to set aside), it clearly implies that James is only now learning that Lincoln underwent Terrigenesis, hence it was after he left.

<p>For the sake of avoiding having to scroll everywhere, I will copy-and-paste our date options assuming we stick with April 17, 1985 as Lincoln's birthday, given what we do know (I'll ignore the one that doesn't date Lincoln's Terrigenesis as we seem to be wanting to date it). </p><p>Here are the dates for dividing everything into fourths and assigning the dates there: </p><p>Car Crash: April 16, 2005
James Leaves: April 16, 2007
Lincoln's Terrigenesis: April 15, 2009 </p><p>Here are the dates for when you split the time into thirds for the car crash and James leaving, but then place Lincoln's Terrigenesis halfway between James leaving and April 2014 (since he really should have had his powers for at least a year given the dates being used, at least in my opinion): </p><p>Car Crash: December 16, 2006
James Leaves: August 16, 2010
Lincoln's Terrigenesis: December 15, 2012 </p><p>I still believe the second option fits slightly more, for the same reasons (that I'll again reiterate simply for the sake of not having to worry about scrolling through really long messages). I think it would be a little too coincidental for every important detail of Lincoln's life pre-Daisy to have happened near his birthday (including meeting Daisy), and the second option provides more variety. It also allows for more time for Lincoln and James to develop the friendship they seem to have had before he left. And while losing time for Lincoln to have gotten his powers and for him to be in Afterlife at all, still gives enough time for Jiaying trusting him to train Daisy being believable. It's also believable the Lincoln's terrigenesis would be near the anniversary of the car crash (as like a six-year anniversary gift), so two December dates right near each other works. </p><p>I hope that clarified everything! </p> </i></div>
<p>Thanks, I guessed that was why Lincoln's Terrigenesis had to be after James left, but couldn't remember the details of the scene. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Mrmichaelt wrote: What episode did Lincoln officially become an agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. - he might have been issued a badge and I.D. card with his D.O.B. on it like "1985APR17", or again maybe it was posted on social media when that episode aired or the prop later showed up online in better resolution so all the data could be seen. "Watchdogs" maybe - when Coulson tested him the field when they went after Felix Blake? </p> </i></div>
<div class="quote"><i> <p>Marvelus wrote: @BEJT, thank you for those timings on the "Ant-Man" film. </p><p>The Lincoln's DOB was added by Bratpack 4 years ago, it came from an ID Badge seen in "Ascension". </p> </i></div>
<p>I've made some tweaks to the <i>Ant-Man</i> stuff. It should all be good now. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Brett3801 wrote: Aha! The image of it is in the wiki: </p><p> </p><p>It's called "BTS Lincoln's Badge.png" and I'm not sure if it's promotional or a screenshot, but it 100% says "April 17, 1985." It's linked as a reference on Lincoln's wiki page for his ID number. So that's definitely something we can move forward with for being his birthday. </p><p>I'm not sure why I didn't see it the first time, but there we have it. </p> </i></div>
<p>Great. Regardless of whether it is or isn't in fact in the show, this'll do. </p><p>So: </p>

1. Lincoln's car crash and arriving at Afterlife - Between April 17, 2003 and April 17, 2014.
2. James leaves Afterlife.
3. Lincoln undergoes Terrigenesis - Before April 17, 2015 (no later than April 16, 2015).

<p>So, while the car crash has a window to itself, I don't think it should be placed halfway between those dates and then the rest worked from there. Because imagine if it were between, say, April 17, 2003 and April 16, 2015. You also have, looking at the three events together, that it should end by April 16, 2015. So you'd be putting the event halfway between the two boundaries, when you could just as easily put them a quarter between. </p><p>So, I think this should be tackled similarly to timings, where basically, we just treat it as three events suspended between the overall boundaries, and then just check that the results fit any other boundaries. </p><p>In which case, the estimates would be: </p>

1. April 16/17, 2006 - Car crash (and of course, checking the boundaries, yes, this falls before April 17, 2014).
2. April 16, 2009 - James leaves.
3. April 15/16, 2012 - Terrigenesis.

<p>However, your point is understandable about it being weirdly coincidental with everything happening around the same time, let alone that time being his birthday. This is something I've encountered before. The thing is, when assigning dates like these, we're not saying "This is exactly when this happened" so much as "This is our best estimate for when it happened". So, shifting things one way or another might feel better in terms of treating them like pinpointed dates, but it's also meaning they're off from the best possible estimates. </p><p>Something I consider is that, say you wiggled some things around so that the car crash is, say, dated to April 14, 2006 instead, just so that it feels less weird (or changed the whole estimation system to a different one like the December 2006, August 2010, December 2012), but then you have some other <i>MCU</i> event specifically explicitly dated to April 15, 2006, then the events are now in the wrong order from the best estimate. </p><p>But it does also feel weird. So I would suggest the compromise of giving each of them wiggle room to not have to be on those exact dates, while also not avoiding the best estimates - by merely putting the car crash under "April 2006" without a specific date, James leaving under "April 2009", and Lincoln's Terrigenesis under "April 2012". </p><p>As for the other points, I personally, from memory, would think 3 years is sufficient for James and Lincoln's friendship, and you still have his Terrigenesis around the 6-year anniversary. </p><p>So that's what I would suggest, personally. </p><p>
</p> <h3><span class="mw-headline" id="The_Topic_Which_Shall_Not_Be_Named_.28Edward_Zachary_Sunrose.2C_Marvelus.2C_Brett3801.2C_Elledy92.29">The Topic Which Shall Not Be Named (Edward Zachary Sunrose, Marvelus, Brett3801, Elledy92)</span></h3> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: OMG I am so over Markus and McFeely's statements about Steve always being there. It just doesn't fit the logic of the movie, and invalidates the character choices THEY made for Steve, Sharon and Peggy, particularly in Peggy's own TV show. </p> </i></div>
<p>To be clear, when I said I didn't want to talk about it, that wasn't me saying "And that's the end of that, they have the final word" or anything. I was just saying that this is just a fact for archiving. </p><p>I think it totally fits the logic of the film. You don't. So be it. </p><p>Avoiding <small>time travel</small> talk and just looking at character, I don't really see what it undermines. Sure, Peggy learned to move on in Season 1, but that isn't to say that if he showed up she wouldn't be delighted, that's only a minor thing. And Steve had learned he had to leave the yearning for his old life behind, but he also never "got a life", like Natasha and Tony told him to, in the present day, and now had the opportunity to come home from the war. That's all I'd say it slightly undermines. And those things apply regardless of your interpretation, so I don't see the problem. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Marvelus wrote: They are correct tho. </p><p>*inserts comment and runs away from problem* </p><p>It does fit with the logic of the movie. Remove a stone, you create a branch, you don't remove, nothing happenes. Does it rewrite a timeline? We don't know. </p><p>*I run away from the conversation* </p> </i></div>
<p>🤷‍♂️ </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: If they are correct, then Steve is an even bigger villain than Thanos. Because he knew the Snap was coming and did NOTHING to help Earth prepare for it. He knew HYDRA had Bucky and was within SHIELD and did nothing to help him. He knew he would make out with his own great-niece and didn't stop himself. </p><p>The only way Endgame does not turn into a character assassination of Steve Rogers is if he was in an alternate timeline with an alternate Peggy. Also, the Loki who got away with the Tesseract is an alternate Loki. The Gamora who survived the massacre of Thanos' forces at Tony's hands is an alternate Gamora. They both still exist, which means their respective timelines still exist. Which is proof enough that Steve lived his life with an alternate Peggy. </p> </i></div>
<p>This is a line of thought that I have (in my opinion, frustratingly and sadly) seen a lot of, and ultimately why I think if Marvel do ever revisit this, they will go the other way, because it seems to anger fewer people. But this isn't how time loops work, you can't change anything no matter how hard I try, because time just is the way it is. 2018 is 2018, there's no second way 2018 plays out. Steve just lives through it twice. 1949 is 1949, there's no second way 1949 plays out. Steve just lives through it twice. Science adviser Clifford V. Johnson talked about this, the "narrative protection". The film specifically lays out that you can't change time unless you're in an alternate timeline, so it's not like Steve could change things. Even if he desperately tried. I also don't think that having romantic tension with a woman on her own merits with no foreknowledge that she is the woman you will eventually go on to marry's very loose blood relation (her parents' son's child's daughter, four family tree branches removed) isn't particularly horrendous. </p><p>I'm also not clear on what Loki or Gamora have to do with proving Steve was in an alternate timeline (or how Gamora, who escaped that timeline, or Loki, who we know time travels away early in the show and whose show we haven't yet seen, prove that the timelines persisted despite Bruce's assurances). But I'm also very reticent to reopen the never-ending, weary, stressful time travel discussions, as I mentioned. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Brett3801 wrote: And, per BEJT's request, we are done talking about that. They (I'm not sure I ever learned BEJT's pronouns, so that's who I'm referring to be clear) have a blog where they talk about it in great detail about Markus and McFeely being correct, there have been to Caps since 1949. This is a huge flaw with <i>Endgame</i>, and kind of a headache to continue to talk about, some I'm glad this very linkable blog explains it well. I linked specifically the section that talks about whether Cap and Clint created new timelines or if that always happened (Clint always arrived at that random point in time, stole his son's glove, and left), and they decided that there was no split, this was the whole timeline. You took one piece of evidence, and yes, both sides have flaws, and they are more than well presented in BEJT's blog. This wiki is taking the (more favorable) stance that there were no new timelines involved when Steve and Clint jumped in time, end of discussion. </p> </i></div>
<p>Thanks a lot man. Actually, the wiki is taking the alternate timeline stance, which is a stressful fact I'm having to just come to uncomfortable terms with. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Elledy92 wrote: The result of time travel will fall on the shoulders will fall on those will produce time-travel related stories and multiverse story in the MCU in the future. I hope they'll use it wisely, but Marvel Studios have shown that they sometimes tend to forget their own "rules" for the sake of narrative (which i, with the passing of the years, tend to be more lenient about it). </p><p>Did any of you remembered that Asgard was meant to be in another dimension in <i>Thor</i>? </p> </i></div>
<p>Oh they definitely conveniently forget rules as they go. Many franchises do. I just really don't want the <i>MCU</i> going the way of the <i>Arrowverse</i>. That universe/multiverse franchise has its own thing going which works for it, with just throwing all time travel rules out of the window and tying in a bunch of DC universes all for the sake of light-hearted fun. It works for them. It wouldn't work for the <i>MCU</i>, which is so tightly woven and has built investment in its chronology and events and story, taught us to care about the specific clear-cut list of what is and isn't <i>MCU</i>, and positioned itself as caring about making sure rules of time travel and things are clear and scientific. I have fears with the Phase Four slate that it's heading in that loose multiverse and time travel route, which to me is not what the <i>MCU</i> is for/about. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Marvelus wrote: ^THIS. It all depends of the story and what it is wanted. </p><p>Now that I think about it, Asgard is like its "own" dimension, as Hela draws power from there. </p> </i></div>
<div class="quote"><i> <p>Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Wasn't it specified in that campfire scene with Thor and Jane that in the MCU the Ten Realms are just planets in different galaxies tied together by a network of wormholes? (The Tree of Life) </p><p>They're definitely pocket dimensions in the comics, but I don't think the MCU ever tried to claim the realms were dimensions. </p> </i></div>
<p>I don't recognise it being said that Asgard was its own dimension. </p>

<p>Cool, April dates it is. I will put them on the calendar now (using the numbered dates, since those years tend to not have stuff timeline now. And yeah, I get why it's important to focus on the dating system, rather than move it around like that, alright. </p><p>And, of course! I totally get that certain things here can be a headache, as there are definitely bound to be consistencies when you have such a huge cinematic universe like this with so many different creators involved. </p>

<div class="quote"><i>Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote:
Wasn't it specified in that campfire scene with Thor and Jane that in the MCU the Ten Realms are just planets in different galaxies tied together by a network of wormholes? (The Tree of Life) <p>They're definitely pocket dimensions in the comics, but I don't think the MCU ever tried to claim the realms were dimensions. </p> </i></div>
<p>Doctor Selvig specifically referred to the Bifrost as a "gateway to another dimension". Is only mentioned in the post-credit scene of Thor. </p>

<p>I am kind of new to editing on this wiki, and I would like to know what we are currently working on in the timeline right now. I have been doing math for dates for Runaways S3, but I am good with getting these things straight- so, not to be a pain, but what are we working on currently in the timeline discussion? </p>

<p>This is a draft page for working on series writing. After checking, everything on the draft page is transferred to the main page of the scale. </p><p>https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/User:Marvelus/Cloak_%26_Dagger,_Runaways_Season_Two_and_Agents_of_S.H.I.E.L.D._Season_Six_Timeline </p>

<p>All of the write-ups are currently done, and BEJT is checking them before placing them on the Wiki. Right now we're mostly just biding time until <i>Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.</i> Season 7 comes out (at least that's how I've been interpreting some of these conversations) and talking about scenes that have come up during rewatches. So, if there's ever something you see while rewatching it that isn't on the timeline, definitely feel free to bring that up here and do the math/write-ups for that. I usually mention it here so that somebody could double check my work (if you look at BEJT's replies labeled "Lincoln" or something like that, you can see the latest incident of that. Also "Gert Finds Out About Molly." Check the contents appearing in one of his replies), but that's just me liking to have my work double-checked, as math was never my strong suit. It mostly gets used whenever a new scene or new timeline evidence gets brought up. So, welcome to the timeline discussion! (Also, trust me, asking a question like that doesn't make you a pain. here is where you can keep track of what's being done for TV stuff) </p>

<p>Hi! BEJT is currently checking the writings already done by Brett3801. But if you have more evidence feel free to tell us. For University and personal stuff my work here is to add images to the years articles. As I have experience with them. </p>