Thread:Marvelus/@comment-27496405-20190519011243/@comment-26838855-20190725224230

SDCC (me, Marvelus, Edward Zachary Sunrose, DaenerysTheMadKhal58, ProBot1227, That&#039;s Why I live in America, Mrmichaelt, additional)
BEJT wrote: A few timeline/canon things from the big reveal: This wasn't on the live blogs/tweets I was reading, but having now watched the panel, there's also the mention that the Eternals will have been around for 35,000 years.
 * WandaVision is set after Endgame but will also in some way include the 1950s.
 * Loki is alternate 2012 Loki.
 * Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness will follow on directly from WandaVision.
 * Mahershala Ali is Blade despite Luke Cage, yikes.

Marvelus wrote: I am so sad and mad at the Blade announcement... Now we are going to face people again with the Netflix shows being non canon. Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: I already had someone try to lecture me on how the Netflix shows are no longer canon because Cottonmouth is now Blade.

I fired back with Miriam Sharpe and Black Mariah being the same actress and canonicity wasn't an issue back then, and that one actor playing two different roles wasn't a source on Netflix's canon status.

Honestly, I should've brought JK Simmons as JJJ up and asked the idiot if they thought that meant the Raimi trilogy were now canon to the MCU. *Sigh.*

DaenerysTheMadKhal58 wrote: The Alternate 2012 Loki thing bothers me, I hope it works out.

And wow, I didn't even make the connection when Blade was announced, now both Cottonmouth's and Mariah's actors play different characters in the TV shows and movies, I hope this doesn't keep happening. I'm wondering if they're going to use the alternate timeline as some sort of starting point but he'll go back in time to the 1970s and end up in the main stem timeline. If they don't tell a whole story in an alternate timeline, I'm more interested.

Loki is the release I'm least interested in though. I never really cared about his character and now it seems that they're really pushing these shows as the same tier as the films - and I don't think Loki has earned a film of his own, so I don't think he's earned a Disney+ show if they're meant to be that level of importance.

BEJT wrote: The difference from Mariah being that Alfre Woodard played a minor role then a big role that just ignores that tiny throwaway (like Laura Haddock). But playing two major MCU characters... Yikes. Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: I mean, Blade has a very distinct look (leather, sunglasses, out there hairstyles and complex facial hair), which is far different from Cottonmouth's (suit, tie, clean cut). He's also British, which is a very different accent compared to a Harlem one.

So as long as they make him look/sound different enough, it should be alright. I hope. Didn't know he's British. I don't know much about the character outside of his origin and clips from the Snipes films, where he has an American accent.

Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: According to MCUExchange, Black Widow will take place after Civil War. (Likely very shortly after, since set pics have Natasha sporting long, red hair.) It will also feature flashbacks to Budapest. Since this is a Black Widow solo movie, and Budapest has been mentioned in relation to her and Hawkeye twice now, that must be the mission he recruited her to SHIELD on, so presumably 2008/2009?

And speaking of Hawkeye, I believe I read that his series will take place during the 5-year gap between Infinity War and Endgame, since it will explore his time as Ronin. Forgot to mention this, mainly because they didn't make it clear.

What seems to have happened is they showed footage of her life, starting with the Age of Ultron 2004ish flashbacks, going through to Captain America: Civil War, and then stopped there with new dialogue about how she betrayed Tony. So that very much implies, without them explicitly saying, that it's post-Civil War. This lines up with her hair.

As well as this, a 2017 BMW 5 Series Touring Wagon has appeared in set photos. So it might be not immediately post-Civil War - but it also seems like Natasha joined Sam and Steve fairly shortly after Civil War, so I don't know.

Budapest appeared in the footage, but I've heard some say it was 2016/17 Budapest, not mid-2000s Budapest. So it would be her returning to Budapest. This would make sense, since Yelena appears to be part of the 2016/17 stuff, and Florence Pugh is young - just 23 - so if it were the mid-2000s then she would only be about 11. Yelena is in the Budapest footage, so it can't really be as far back as the mid-2000s. I am wondering, though, how they're supposed to have a past together if Yelena was only about 11 when she left, but the Red Room does train girls young.

I've always assumed Natasha switched to S.H.I.E.L.D. around 2005. It feels in 2010 like she's been at S.H.I.E.L.D. for quite a while, becoming a top/trusted agent. It feels in 2012 like her and Clint have several years of history. But Natasha can't be younger than 20ish in the Age of Ultron flashbacks, making them at least about 2004. So I've always settled on about 2005.

Not sure if Budapest would be the mission where he recruited her or just a mission they had early in their time working together. Definitely seems like a fair few years before 2012 for them to be making jokes about remembering it differently, so I always assumed c. 2006 overall.

They said they'd explore her past, though I'm not sure if they actually said they'll be showing things from her past. It might be more just people from her past showing up. But considering this, the various rumours/reports, and a '90s car set photo, I'm fairly sure we'll be getting flashbacks to about 1999-2006. Whether the flashbacks are 1% of the film, 10%, 20%, 50%, 99%... who knows?

With Hawkeye, I think they said it's set after Endgame, but will explore more of his time as Ronin - so presumably that's just flashbacks.

ProBot1227 wrote: Loki is Alternate Loki? Oh man...

Blade? Sure, cool. It doesn't change canonicity cause the movies consider Agent Carter canon which consider Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. canon which consider the Netflix shows. Simple. As much as I really appreciate your proof on the discussions page about the inter-connectivity of canon making each show individually inextricable, it doesn't actually make it impossible. For example, they could remove Daredevil from canon and that doesn't suddenly make Saint Agnes Orphanage non-canon, just that Matt went there. They could remove Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. from canon and that doesn't make the Dark Matter or the Howling Commandos or whatever else non-canon, just that the Dark Matter resurfaced in 2016, or that the Howling Commandos went on that specific mission, etc.. It's like the inspired canon comics. They tie in to the events of the films, but they're still snipped out of canon. Even after Jarvis they could still technically remove Agent Carter from canon and just say that Jarvis happens to also look like James D'Arcy in the film canon (though Agent Carter is the one they're least likely to cut out, considering the people from Marvel Studios involved).

I felt quite gutted and worried when Mahershala Ali was announced, but I've settled down now. I've gone back to looking at the logic of it and again, yeah - I don't want to jinx it, but he shouldn't ever be able to wipe things. Feige will probably just continue to ignore their existence, but learn to live with the fact that they're a canon part of his universe whether he likes it or not and he can only do so much about that.

That&#039;s Why I live in America wrote: So I was up all night trying to convince people on Reddit and Twitter that just because Mahershala Ali plays Cotton Mouth doesn't make it non canon to no avail. Marvel Studios has extended some common courtesy to Marvel TV with the whole Tilda Johnson situation so I wonder what how Feige will introduce him. With thw whole "Multiverse of Madness" this could be our savior based on the way Blade and vampires get introduced. *fingers crossed*

As is the case with Sarge when can have people in the MCU that look exactly like other people. With Loki being in an "Alternate" timeline really messes things up as well. Does what he do not affter the main timeline or did it not happen at all in our current continuity? Yesterday was a good day for casuals but a headache for the hardcore fans. I'm sick of people being desperate to call the shows non-canon so they can feel validated about not watching the shows. It's OK to not have the time/facilities to watch these shows, guys. No one's attacking you. But they're canon, you just have to accept that you are missing out on some canon, stop trying to dismiss them.

I don't think we need a multiverse explanation for it. I don't think we need an explanation at all - sure, these guys just look similar, like Miriam Sharpe and Mariah Dillard. All we need is just an acknowledgement, so it doesn't feel like a slap in the face.

If you're asking if picking up with Loki in that timeline has any bearing on the main timeline, the answer's no for now, unless the show finds a way to shift him around.

Marvelus wrote: People is annoying and this whole situation is frustrating... I was all excited and then that killed it for me. It was a low note to end on.

BEJT wrote: On a different note, something I forgot to mention is Teyonah Parris playing Monica Rambeau, which seems too young.

Since Monica was 11 in Captain Marvel and Akira Akbar was about 11.5, Monica was born around December 1983. Teyonah Parris will be 32.7ish when they film WandaVision, suggesting only about 2016, but it'll be post-Endgame so more like 2024. Parris would have to be playing 40ish which seems unlikely. We'll see. DaenerysTheMadKhal58 wrote: I think in the next two years we'll see what will happen to the Netflix shows' canonicity. They're not going to let Daredevil sleep forever, they'll either bring the same character into the MCU, or they'll reboot the character, which would make the shows no longer canon. They might recast, but as long as they acknowledge the show's continuity, it'd still be canon.

According to the Wikipedia page for Monica Rambeau: "She is immortal and does not age beyond her prime". That's the only proper fear I have left. While I don't think - again, really really don't want to jinx this - Feige could ever make a comment about wiping canon, the fear is that he uses the characters in a couple of years and indirectly wipes them. I'm also scared Iron Fist might ruin this. If they'd unanimously nailed the casting/character the way they did for Matt, Luke, Jessica, and Frank, then we'd have a clean sweep where they should feel happy to take them on and use them. But Feige won't want to take on the controversy and hate against this Iron Fist, and that might muddy the whole thing. But they don't need to take them on as a whole so that shouldn't really be a factor.

ProBot1227 wrote: Thry know we'll hate them for a reboot. Either they do nothing or they bring him into the movies (Spider-Man 3). I don't even know anymore. So many people seem excited at the prospect that I'm not even sure anymore if, if it happened, there would be an angry outcry or if the general consensus among the public would be "Oh, cool."

Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Someone playing older than they are has happened before. Chloe Bennett is 4 years younger than Daisy Johnson. Granted, it's not as extreme as 8 years, but if it works, it works. Yeah Daisy being that old seemed a bit odd to me. But it's not the fact that she's playing a character older than her, there's no particular reason that someone can't play someone slightly older than them the same way people play characters slightly younger than them, other than the general feeling of "Well everyone in Hollywood looks younger than their actual age so usually plays down". It's the difference between 32 and 40 that I was pointing out (not saying it's necessarily a problem because who knows how she'll play in, if it will be 2024 or some sort of reality thing/past thing or whatever) that is quite a big difference. However, as Marvelus points out...

Marvelus wrote: She could have been a victim of the Snap That's possible. Very possible, 50% chance of it. I'd forgotten. It's going to take a while to get used to remembering that possibility. 32 playing 35 works fine.

Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: As is to be expected, media outlets are already (INCORRECTLY) calling the Netflix shows non-canon because of the Mahershala Ali casting, and throwing Cloak and Dagger, Runaways, Agents of SHIELD and Agent Carter (which was confirmed canon by Endgame! WTF?) in the conversation for good measure. In this Nerdist video, Kevin Feige says there's no connection between Blade and Cottonmouth. To be fair, I've seen a couple of articles which word it better, basically saying that it feels like Feige is treating them as non-canon or saying, "Some fans are wondering if this might even make the shows no longer canon."

Mrmichaelt wrote: That video was horrible. Pretty sure Feige was being literal, like Blade and Cottonmouth aren't related to each other. Which is true... Yeah, I was prepared to find that video horrible when I saw people talking about it in the discussions section, but I didn't find it too bad. If anyone's taking that interview to go "Ha! Cottonmouth isn't in the same universe!", that's a huge leap. It definitely to me is just them going "Is he related in some way, or like a multiverse thing or something?" "No, no. Just the same actor."

Marvelus wrote: Is anyone else anyone else genuinely mad at people posting comments claiming that Feige has said the Netflix shows are not canon when he has said completely otherwise?? Why do people like spreading stupidity? Of course.

Mrmichaelt wrote: Yes. Even the "journalist's" question is so click-bait (and kinda racist if you think about it -- I mean, no two black characters aren't related to each other... they're not all related, white guy. And don't waste my time when you could have looked that up on Google) trying to play dumb to lure Feige into saying something to get their site hits then all those videos and articles spread based on a one word answer. Ugh. So dumb. I'm surprised that video was from Nerdist. I haven't looked at their site in awhile, but that was just awful down to that woman's tone. I don't think it's racist to ask if these two characters are related, in the same way people asked James Gunn about Laura Haddock's two characters. The black characters are all related racist thing applied more when people assumed Finn would be Lando's son in The Force Awakens and that kind of thing.

Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: I mean, it pisses me off but I've been hearing "the tv shows aren't canon" since I joined this fanbase. It's only gotten more brutal since Infinity War, especially with everyone, even the show's own fans, claiming that AoS is in an alternate timeline as if it was a confirmed fact.

What can we do? Feige won't ever say a concrete yes or no because he won't want to risk alienating the shows' fans from watching the movies, but he also doesn't want to make movie fans think any of the shows are required viewing (aside from WandaVision, apparently). There seems to be an impatience with the TV characters where as more years go on without main characters appearing in the films, they become more decisive that it's not canon. But there's definitely a factor of "I can't keep up with this stuff and don't have an attachment to it, it would be nice if it's just non-canon" about these people.

Very much hope Feige won't ever be concrete about it. But this panel implied to me that the Disney+ shows are being pushed as pretty much as important as the films. They count as part of the phase (and without them, the phase is just five films), they were announced alongside and on the same timeline, they're doing the next Captain America in the TV shows, and WandaVision is feeding right into Multiverse of Madness.

The Markus and McFeely panel got uploaded, so here's some notes.
 * 7:09 - They call the beginning of Endgame 20 years after Captain Marvel (three times). Obviously they're just rounding.
 * 16:58 - McFeely somewhat confirms it's 2023.
 * 23:29 - They talk about time travel a bit, same thing about Back to the Future.
 * 28:17 - Markus talks about how the Infinity Stones being removed are their rules for what messes with timelines in the film.
 * 39:02 - Markus talks, like the Russos, about Steve actually meeting Red Skull again during the returning of the stones.
 * 41:40 - They mention that Thanos is from 2014. Not at all controversial of course, but still worth noting.
 * 46:40 - They, like the Russos, don't really want to talk anymore about the Cap thing, but Markus says again he's partial to the two Caps in the main timeline theory.

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 6 (Gerisama, Edward Zachary Sunrose, Mrmichaelt, Marandahir, The Wikia Editor, DaenerysTheMadKhal58, Marvelus)
Gerisama wrote: So, having watched latest AOS episode, the "creation" of Sarge sounds a bit like a predestiation paradox once again, OR it can also mean that we're just witnessing the events of a time branch where the monolith-Coulson was sent back and merged with Pachakutiq. (Or maybe Izel's home is a dimension out of time like Dormammu's or the Quantum Realm) Yup, predestination. Didn't even think about that being significant because that should just be the way time works.

I highly doubt this is some weird branch considering all the references to the events of past seasons.

Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: According to Jed Whedon, the Snap will be addressed in Season 6. (Go to 3:00) Dear God, please don't let it be the "jaw-dropping, cliffhanger finale" everyone's been teasing. ("At any moment, someone could just disappear...") That would actually do more damage to the timeline than good considering the last episode confirmed it's currently 2019. (Or at least, episode 6x03 was in 2019.) This is... troubling.

I trust Jed somewhat, and I think I believe him when he says they've properly thought it through, more than I would if Loeb said it. It does sound to me like what they've thought through might be a way to make this an offshoot timeline. While it doesn't seem possible from the conventional theory of "Oh it's when they changed time in Season 5", they could potentially make it work with additional information, some twist about how the Chronicoms have already changed time or something. While I would be sad for this to be a different timeline from the main MCU, at least the reasoning would make sense. Better than the Snap happening now, which... don't even want to think about that.

Mrmichaelt wrote: But later after that Jed did say it won't come up in season 6 after Bell chimes in. His earlier wording "At any moment, someone could just disappear..." felt like him joking around. I think if anything it might help reassure that they won't be doing that. If they were, it seems unlikely that he'd say that and thus hint at it.

Marandahir wrote: In the same episode as the 2019 drop was a mention of it being five years since Daisy went to space... what!?

Are they trying to make this both 5 years since the snap and also 2019? How is they possible when the season began 1 year later!? Those were two different episodes. And the "5 years" line isn't about being in space for 5 years. It's referring to the weird things Daisy has experienced in the last 5 years at S.H.I.E.L.D..

Marandahir wrote: How is it a predestination complex? Way I understood it, when Coulson went down there and saw Di’Allas-Mike Peterson, he created a new forked timeline that the agents now entered. In this new timeline, Pachakutiq encountered a Di’Allas-made Coulson copy that he managed to body-snatch and then got confused and fought against Izel for a thousand years. Nothing Pachakutiq did, to our knowledge thus far, has affected the original timeline before Coulson touched the anomaly.

That said, a forked timeline might also account for lack of Snap!? Certainly creates other issues that the movies and this show have explored earlier and may continue to explore.

As for Izel’s dimension, that Ghost Rider line may be telling. What else can “create” matter and energy and forms? What was Ghost Rider after? That reference at Jemma’s happy place storytelling moment could be more than just an joke... It's quite a leap to gather all of that from the Sarge explanation. As far as I'm aware, Sarge just popped up a long time ago and has always been around, and showed up now. Especially with the time rules of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D..

The Wikia Editor wrote: I think you're confused. I checked the transcript of the episode and no one even says the number 5 at any point during it.

If you're referring to Daisy's "ocean of lava" conversation with Mack in Episode 9, Mack is simply making a joke about how, after everything she's been through over the past 5 years, she should have known that the ocean of lava wouldn't have remained the most bizarre thing she'd seen upon returning to Earth. Exactly.

DaenerysTheMadKhal58 wrote: It probably won't happen (I hope), but say that they made the stupid decision of making the Snap happen at the end of ''Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Season 6. ''What would we do in that situation?

Also, I just realized there won't be an episode 616 of AoS :/ Nope. No. Just can't. No idea.

If something like that were to happen, we'd be looking at having to exploit any loopholes and wiggle room, so it would all rely on the execution and we can't say now what we would do.

Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: If the Snap happens at the end of Season 6, I will literally drink an entire bottle of wine. Marvelus wrote: Let me join you, I will travel to wherever you live xD Quite.

Thor and the Guardians (MrRLopez)
MrRLopez wrote: James Gunn confirms that Thor: Love and Thunder happens before Guardians of the Galaxy Vol.3 I just took that to mean that it's releasing before, but I guess it could mean set before as well. Well, they would almost certainly mean the same thing anyway. Marvel almost never backtrack on a character's arc - if you see a character appear in a film (not including flashbacks), you can know that it's set after the last time you saw that character. The only exceptions are Tony in The Incredible Hulk and Fury and Coulson in Captain Marvel (and Stan Lee). One would imagine that either some Guardians will appear in Love and Thunder or Thor in Vol. 3, and with Vol. 3 releasing after, that would basically confirm it's set after.

Runaways: Season 2 (MrRLopez)
MrRLopez wrote: Can we add Runaways season 2 to the timeline page? I think we have half season set, only we have to figure out if there is a time jump in the middle. When I was working on it in December-January, I asked a few times about the time jump. When responses didn't come immediately to sort it while it was still being worked out, it sort of slipped as we had to move on to the next thing. I did eventually get a couple of responses and I think we decided to stretch the season out to match the days of the week with a few gaps, but I need to go back and finish it off with that conclusion and get the events on the timeline pages. I'm doing all sorts of bits of work at the moment, and that's on my to-do list and coming up soon now that I've gone back and finished off the Iron Fist: Season 2/Daredevil: Season 3 notes. I'm currently working on my blogs, working on write-ups (about to speed up on those), and correcting the Captain Marvel 1995 events write-up. But Runaways cleanup is coming up (along with plenty of other things).

If you mean specifically the "Timeline" page, as I mentioned to someone else today, I'll be working on that too soon. The "Timeline" page was last (properly) updated in December, and couldn't be further updated since because it was locked for editing by admins and content moderators. But since I have now been promoted to a content moderator, I am able to edit it and update the last 7 months, so it has been added to my to-do list and is coming up.

If you mean specifically writing up the full events of Runaways: Season 2, that won't come for a little while. Marvelus has written them but I need to check and correct them, and won't be getting to that until Luke Cage: Season 2, Iron Fist: Season 2, and some of Daredevil: Season 3 are done in the next couple of months.

Ghost Rider (Edward Zachary Sunrose, Mrmichaelt)
Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Ghost Rider's show will "acknowledge his past" from Agents of SHIELD, further confirming that show is set after the events of Season 4. Mrmichaelt wrote: Cool. Good to hear.

Avengers: Endgame Deleted Scene (additional)
In this deleted scene, Thor unfortunately again says "fifteen hundred years". Glad in the film he has the line about 1000 years which helps balance things out a bit.