Thread:Marvelus/@comment-26838855-20190116120806/@comment-26838855-20190502021846

Marvel Animated Shows (Marvelus, Elledy92)
Marvelus wrote: Will be The Offenders part of the MCU? No indication of that, and doesn't seem compatible.

Elledy92 wrote: From what we know, no. They are their own shared project. I'm excited to see them but Marvel's animation hasn't been the best since the 90s. I'm not going to watch them, I don't have time for this sort of thing honestly. There's so many superhero shows and you either at this point have to be in a universe I watch all the content for (MCU, Arrowverse), or be a really well-received show and/or have short seasons (Legion, for example).

Marvelus wrote: I miss AEMH, Spectacular Spider-Man, all the Spider-Man TV shows before Ultimate and the new one, and miss the X-Men shows, including Wolverine and the X-Men. Those were really really good shows. Never watched any Marvel animated shows lol. I think I maybe saw two or three episodes of the X-Men animated series as a child when the BBC got it for their older children's channel, "CBBC".

Ghost Rider and Helstrom (Elledy92, Mrmichaelt, Edward Zachary Sunrose, Marvelus, Rman823)
Elledy92 wrote: I'm curious, but worried, on how they will change and "nerf" those characters in the comics. Both Daimon Hellstrom and Ana (Satana) are son of a demon in the comics. I'm glad they are making them more grounded, but i hope they'll keep the element of horror and dark magic from the comics (and not have them washed out as "son of an interdimensional alien" like in most of the MCU TV products). Yeah it does feel like since it's a TV show, it's not allowed to have a massive impact so has to have characters toned down.

Mrmichaelt wrote: The TV news was a pleasant surprise! Really happy for Ghost Rider in particular. Interesting the registered titles also listed Glyph and Spirits of Vengeance. Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Daimon Hellstrom is known as both the Son of Satan and Hellstorm. He's a magical hero best-known for being the ex-husband of Trish Walker whose demonic influences inadvertently caused her to commit suicide. Also in the recent Defenders comic from 2017, it was revealed he was the ex-boyfriend of Jessica Jones, which could both be really easy ways to kick-start a crossover in Helstrom's second or third seasons, when the Netflix rights restrictions should be up. He also never wears a shirt, which is really hot.

His sister Satana is an extremely powerful witch and flip-flops between being hero and villain as often as you or I change our underwear. And she's known for some very revealing outfits.

I'm also incredibly excited that Marvel Television is still going to pushing out MCU TV shows, especially now that Marvel Studios finally actually acknowledged them! Thanks for the explanation. I've heard people are confused as to why it's "Hell" in the comics but "Hel" here.

Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Edit: It's being speculated that the Ghost Rider TV show, despite focusing on Robbie Reyes as played by Gabriel Luna, will not be set in the MCU and will not be a spin-off from his storyline on Agents of SHIELD. This is just speculation, it is not confirmed, and it is very likely false. Yeah this was discussed on the discussions feature. I am inclined to believe that this just means it's a standalone story. It's weird how articles so often are unclear by what they mean about whether it's just a standalone or if it's literally not the same reality. Things like that producer saying The Suicide Squad was a "total reboot" when they meant "a relaunch, a complete trying again, still technically a sequel" and confused people.

Marvelus wrote: It is entirely false, of course, they would not have hired an actor only to say that the TV Show is not set in the MCU... Yeah. The only times that MCU actors have reprised their roles and it's not the MCU are when it's for animated shows, so it's more clear. It would be bizarre for Marvel Television (the same studio) to make a show with the same actor and the capacity to be in the MCU... and it's just not.

Rman823 wrote: Hulu' has stated that "this isn't a traditional spin-off of S.H.I.E.L.D., but will focus on the SAME CHARACTER with a new story that lives unto its own". Think of it like The Punisher where you don't have to have seen his introduction in Daredevil Season 2 to enjoy the show. However, it still happened. Thank you, that's a much better explanation from Hulu. I would imagine even less tied in than The Punisher, which is a bit connected with Karen and mentions of Daredevil events. I still consider The Punisher a spin-off show because it wasn't initially planned but came about because it came out of a successful character from a show. Same here, successful character in a show goes and gets his own, new show that wasn't planned from the start. Even if it doesn't really acknowledge Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D..

Mrmichaelt wrote: Thank you! Yes, this! But I predict people will be go Chicken Little and say AOS is now non-canon because of that Variety article. Ugh these people annoy me. Canon is canon.

Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Will say? They're already saying it. ScreenJunkies did a video discussing the news, and they not only (incorrectly) assumed AoS might no longer be canon, they also incorrectly stated Season 6 was the final season.

But yeah, I believe it's the same case as Punisher as well. Only unlike Punisher, there won't be a slaughter montage in the beginning tying up loose ends because Robbie's entire story got wrapped up in Season 4. They can hit the ground running with new stuff. Hey don't diss Screen Junkies News/Fandom Entertainment (I know you're not really). I love those guys so much, Dan Murrell is an American national treasure and, even if I disagree with him and Roth quite a bit, they are incredible critics with fantastically deep opinions and insight.

Also while they did say that they thought this season was probably its last because none of them massively follow it, I don't think that's what they were saying about Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.. I thought Dan was saying that Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. is indeed canon MCU and that that therefore, with the Variety comment, would, he guesses, mean that Ghost Rider is non-canon.

Mrmichaelt wrote: That's unfortunate but expected. I'm not familiar with ScreenJunkies though. I'm guessing they said Season 7 is the final season, too. :P They're the guys behind Honest Trailers but that, while their most popular content, is far from their best content. Their best content is on their second channel, which was called Screen Junkies News but, with them being acquired by Fandom (the wiki people) last year, has now been renamed Fandom Entertainment. Charting with Dan (I particularly love his Captain Marvel episode) is brilliant, insightful, and such a careful news source, and when they're reporting news they take the time and care to get to the source for the proper facts and not the stuff that can get spread in the Chinese Whispers-like news effect in rushed, poor articles these days. They didn't get that Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. thing right but that wasn't what they were reporting on, it was a quick throwaway comment when the show came up in their discussion and they admitted they weren't sure. Their reviews are great even if, when it comes to Marvel, I often disagree. I just think they're brilliant.

Endgame (Mrmichaelt)
Mrmichaelt wrote: Thank you! It's weird the Russo Brothers refused to say what year that dance takes place. This is so weird. Why is this all a mystery?

Anyway, I made another important post on the long discussions about the logistics of the timelines, and I thought I'd share it here to make sure it's seen. When I refer to a suggestion, it was a suggestion from the user Teen Titans Forever! that I wanted to evaluate and didn't quite agree with in the end. BEJT wrote: I've reevaluted the Ancient One scene and the Captain America scene, taking your suggestion into account but also trying to make it work for the way the Russos are saying the time travel works. I've done my best with the poor wording.

"If I give up the Time Stone to help your reality I'm dooming my own."

If the Ancient One gives Bruce the Time Stone so he can alter reality, that could benefit him and the reality he creates, but it leaves her doomed, missing the Time Stone.

You can either take this as that they are already in a new splinter reality, or that she is referring to the fact that as soon as it's given up, there are two realities and Bruce would be helping his or dooming hers.

I don't know if Loki has escaped yet at this point, or if Cap has said "Hail Hydra", but the fact that events in 2012 are incompatible mean that the moment they arrive is a split. It can't just split a few minutes after their arrival because that would mean that originally in the timeline, the 2023 versions of themselves were present for a few minutes, hidden then... disappeared? The split has to occur BECAUSE they arrived. So we know it has to be the first of those two options.

"With all due respect, alright, I - I'm not sure the science really supports that."

"The Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time. Remove one of the stones and that flow splits. The flow of time splits when a stone is removed. But it's also already split, apparently, despite the stone not being removed yet - and can still split anyway even if you don't remove a stone. Anyway...

"Now this may benefit your reality, but my new one, not so much. In this new branch of reality, without our chief weapon against the forces of darkness, our world would be overrun, millions will suffer."

So she's saying Bruce would pop back to his reality with the thing that can help him, but he's leaving behind a splinter without the Time Stone that is in massive trouble.

"So tell me doctor, can your science prevent all that?"

"No... we can erase it. Because once we're done with the stones, we can return each one to its own timeline at the moment it was taken, so chronologically, in that reality, it never left."

Meanwhile, the black line moved back into the orange line and disappears.

So "no", they can't "prevent" the suffering. But they can erase the suffering timeline from existence in returning the stone. I just don't see how this doesn't imply that the splinters are cut off, and only opened/closed due to Infinity Stones. But if it's not that, I guess you can fudge it as, "We make sure that for the Ancient One's reality, that we've already created in arriving back in 2012, there's no darkness, we just return the stones."

However, this doesn't account for:

-Why that involves getting rid of a split in time. Because you're not.

-Why removing the Infinity Stone had anything to do with splitting time.

-Why this is "erasing" and specifically not "preventing".

The only way I can answer these questions is that she is talking about a splinter ON the splinter. Ignoring the fact that the timeline just splintered and just referring to the timeline they're currently in, and saying that removing the stone will cause a further split that will cause a dark reality, and they're erasing THAT splinter from existence. But the splinter created by them arriving in 2012 is still in existence, it's just not a problem.

This works with the unclear usage of "reality", but does not account for the fact that the scene strongly is implying that the Infinity Stones are THE reason that time splits.

Sure, we know from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. that time can split in other ways as well, but that's not important here, in this film by the rules they set up for the film, that they are aware of, it strongly implies that Infinity Stones are THE reason time splits. But I guess not, I guess she's just also saying that removing Infinity Stones also causes a split. It's a second way things split. That's poorly phrased if that's the intention, but, *sigh*, OK.

"And remember, you have to return the stones to the exact moment you got 'em or you're gonna open up a bunch of nasty alternative realities."

So what this is meant to mean is actually that if you don't return the stones you'll cause dark alternative realities splintering from the splinter realities. BEJT wrote: It wasn't perfectly explained or else people like all of us who have taken the time to comb through it in detail would come to an agreement, and would've known how it worked. We didn't.

1) I guess my explanation for that is now that they've erased the splinter on the splinter.

2) They probably didn't show him coming out of the machine for story reasons rather than logic reasons. a) It's much more moving with the slow realisation, b) it's less silly, c) it doesn't allow them to have Steve just calmly talk to Sam aside from the others, and d) if he came back as an old man it might confuse people like they'd done the thing they did with Scott earlier in the film. But it's the only way he could've got back according to the logic the film tells us. BEJT wrote: It turns out according to the Russos that every bit of time travel splits the timeline, so 1945, 1970, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2018 all have splinter timelines coming off them from Steve's jump, the Space Stone Heist, the Mind and Time Stone Heist, the Reality Stone Heist, the Power and Soul Stone Heist, and Hawkeye's test. If the timelines therefore continued to exist as their own timelines, which seems to be the case if it is indeed that they're erasing the splinters on splinters and from the implication of the Russos'/Markus and McFeely's comments, then we have three timelines (1970, 2013, and 2018) that are essentially identical, one timeline that could be very different or only slightly different (2012), and two timelines that are very different (1945, 2014). This is weird, it's not what the Ancient One scene suggested. But I guess this is where we are now.

Anyway, we have seven offshoot timelines now, which I'll call:
 * 1) 1945 Steve Rogers/Peggy Carter Timeline
 * 2) 1970 Space Stone Heist Timeline
 * 3) 2012 Mind/Time Stone Heist Timeline
 * 4) 2013 Reality Stone Heist Timeline
 * 5) 2014 Power/Soul Stone Heist Timeline
 * 6) 2018 Hawkeye Test Run Timeline
 * 7) 2018 Lighthouse Timeline

The Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. thing is a bit odd, because the Lighthouse Timeline is in fact the original timeline, and the new timeline is more of the "offshoot". However, it's just odd to call the new timeline - which includes the final third of Infinity War and everything main timeline in Endgame - an offshoot, it's the "main" timeline and Earth-19999. So the offshoot should still be considered the Lighthouse Timeline, just while those six Endgame timelines are kind of shooting off the timeline below it (if you think of the timeline horizontally), this one's sort of shooting off above it, if you kind of consider drawing it above as sort of "this one existed first" and drawing it below as sort of "this one came into existence after". It's odd but hey.

As for pages, I think, at least for now, the Lighthouse Timeline is the only one that needs its own page. What happened with the 2018 page was that where it splits, there's side-by-side timelines just on the 2018 page, and then a link to the page for the rest of the Lighthouse Timeline beyond 2018. However with the other six, there's only a tiny bit of content that just slots in side-by-side on the main pages like the beginning of the Lighthouse Timeline does. If, like the Lighthouse Timeline, we go on to see more events from any of these timelines (like in Loki), where you can't just slot the brief events alongside and it needs to branch into its own page like the Lighthouse Timeline.

Man, keeping up with the 3 or 4 discussion threads on the main wiki and the like... 17? discussions on the discussions feature are so exhausting.

Having spent a whole week now responding to Endgame discussions, it's put off my Cloak & Dagger work by a week - plus I lost some work because I was relying on the thing the wiki had introduced where it saved drafts, but then they removed it again and I lost the work, so I lost another few days. So I will (re)start my Cloak & Dagger: Season 1 checks and general Cloak & Dagger work, and finally get around to finishing the The Punisher: Season 2 notes I accidentally abandoned 3 months ago, in the coming days, slightly later than planned (as always...).