Thread:CirUmeUela/@comment-27496405-20180307074410/@comment-2112031-20180707105908

BEJT wrote:

Yeah I've been following their discussion, although I've dropped off the last couple of days to avoid Luke Cage, Cloak & Dagger, and Ant-Man and the Wasp spoilers and to focus on this chat.

I've just finished Episode 10, so haven't got to the West Indian Parade mention yet, but it's really helpful for definitive dates. It lines up as well with the "August 24th" train advert in Episode 3, as well as the time of filming and weather and it being after Game of Thrones: Season 7, and a few other things. I've been taking my detailed notes as I go to work out the exact dates of all the events of the season and collect all of the evidence.

The 2018 choice is because of their different approach, which is much more willing to go with contradictory props. They chose August-September 2018 based on the magazine which is seemingly "May/June 2018" and Mariah's bank statement, which shows the next statement to be "Sept 1, 2018", suggesting this is August 2018. They decided it overruled some other evidence, such as Shades' "1 18" registration sticker, but also have missed some things (at least last time I looked), like the Jamaicans' "2 18" sticker in Episode 9.

So, this is why I think it's 2017 - essentially, because it can't be 2016 and it can't be 2018, and 2017 is the best fit. August-September 2017 fits perfectly with the time of filming. It fits with almost all of the evidence. It's the earliest possible date that is still after all the pop culture references, the latest being Game of Thrones: Season 7 - basically, it's as close as possible to The Defenders: Season 1 while still fitting all the references. When I predicted the timeline placement, I predicted August 2017 - it's about as perfect a placement for the show as I could have hoped, frankly, fitting with all Marvel Netflix timeline patterns, and almost all of the evidence. It's the best compromise between the feeling of it being 2016 and the evidence of it being 2017-2018, and a jump of 15 months between Marvel Netflix seasons would just be weird, with 6 months being the biggest jump so far, between Jessica Jones: Season 1 and Daredevil: Season 2, and between The Defenders: Season 1 and The Punisher: Season 1. Yeah, sounds about right. I've finished the season and pretty much agree that neither 2016 or 2018 feel quite right. It's similar to how Daredevil: Season 2 felt like it couldn't decide when it took place. In any case, 2017 works out mostly fine, so that's settled at least.
 * Why it can't be 2016:
 * Ronda Rousey's December 2016 loss is mentioned.
 * In the August part of the season, Misty's "9 18" registration is shown. At most, it's a 2-year registration, which would mean it starts in September 2016, so it cannot be August 2016.
 * This Is Us is mentioned in the August part of the season. That show only premiered in September 2016, meaning it can't be August 2016.
 * Game of Thrones: Season 7 is referenced with "Bend the knee", and that wasn't until Summer 2017.
 * Foggy, Thembi, and Turk all appear, having appeared in Jessica Jones: Season 2. While Marvel do release their films out of chronological order, they never follow any characters out of order. When you see a character, it is always, for the character, after the last time we saw them. The only example I can think of where they didn't stick to this is Tony Stark's cameo in The Incredible Hulk, which is set after Iron Man 2, but that film came out literally 6 weeks after Iron Man, so I'm pretty sure they hadn't yet decided exactly how Iron Man 2 was going to work in relation to the cameo. They had to go on to make a whole one-shot just to explain how it slotted in. I thought this rule might break with Ant-Man and/or Wasp and/or Captain Marvel in Infinity War, but no - apart from Hawkeye, the only missing heroes from that film turned out to be the ones with films yet to come out that are set before Infinity War. So, because there's characters that carry over from Jessica Jones: Season 2, I just feel that automatically that means it has to be after Jessica Jones: Season 2. Sure, there's nothing to contradict it being before that season, but it would just be very strange and not conventional.
 * All evidence points to 2017-2018. There is no actual evidence placing it in 2016, so while it might feel like 2016, it would be ignoring all of the evidence.
 * Why it can't be 2018:
 * It's just far too long since Season 1 and since The Defenders: Season 1. There's a feeling of it not being long since Luke Cage: Season 1 with Scarfe's cases only just being kicked and Mariah and Shades having not acted much since Season 1, and a few other things. Almost 3 years is very unlikely. As for The Defenders: Season 1, a bit over a year is already really pushing it, but is necessary - over 2 years is just impossible. Misty's still getting used to her arm being missing, Mariah's not seen Luke since he got out of prison, and all the discussion is as if it were pretty recent.
 * Shades' registration sticker is "1 18", meaning it cannot be later than January 2018.
 * The Jamaicans have a "2 18" registration sticker, meaning it cannot be later than February 2018.
 * Future Netflix seasons will have to be set after this, with this definitely being before Daredevil: Season 3 and Iron Fist: Season 2, and most likely before The Punisher: Season 2. If this is August-September 2018, that pushes those seasons very late, and they will almost certainly have evidence placing themselves earlier than that - especially with it meaning that Matt would have had to be at the convent for over 2 years.
 * Loeb's comment would suggest this is pre-Infinity War. While he only says "for the most part", because Luke Cage: Season 2 being August-September 2018 would put this and Daredevil: Season 3 and Iron Fist: Season 2 and probably The Punisher: Season 2 (all likely releasing before Avengers 4) after Infinity War in the timeline, I don't think that can count as "for the most part".

BEJT wrote:

Love it. I don't think there's been a reference in the Netflix shows to the other shows since Daredevil: Season 1 over 3 years ago, with St. Agnes' Orphanage and Crusher Creel.

And I've heard from you and others that they refer back to Luke Cage in Cloak & Dagger Episode 5 (I haven't watched it yet, talking about O'Reilly's time in Harlem. Great coordination on the part of Marvel TV to line up the release/airing dates for the references. Yeah, although I suppose the Roxxon Oil Corporation can be considered a reference in and of itself, since it has appeared or been referenced in several movies and shows by this point.

BEJT wrote:

Oh well, it's good to have a more definite date.

Along with Mama Mabel's birthday happening in Episode 1 (giving us an August date for her birthday, just not a year to go with it), the spoilery new information we get in Episode 9 about Pistol Pete and the time leading up to his death, what you guys say further down about how apparently we get more definitive dates for Pistol Pete's death in the season, and the fact that my methods for non-contradictory evidence have improved since the first time of writing, I'll be sure to update my Luke Cage past dates blog soon and get the updated placements. Great, looking forward to it.

BEJT wrote:

I didn't actually miss this one, but I couldn't read it before and I had a tab open waiting for the HD screencap. But thanks to you MrRLopez and thanks to Bussterj, I don't need that now!

As Bussterj goes on to clarify, it's August 1, 1990. We can work with that. As The Wikia Editor points out, it's not consistent with him being 17 and dying on April 18, 2007 - if necessary, as he says, we can pass it off as the writer going, "Right, he was born in 1990, so 2007 - 1990 = 17, he was 17." However, it's looking like 2007 might no longer work for the accident, despite the clear security footage date. It's possible that him being born in August 1990 and being 17 years old will turn out to work. Of course I'll add these bits of evidence to the pile of contradictory Cloak & Dagger evidence, and I'll list what we have so far for Cloak & Dagger a bit further down. BEJT wrote:

The Wikia Editor's not saying that someone born August 1990 who died in April 2007 should be labelled as "17" rather than the correct "16", but just coming up with a potential in-universe explanation for why the writer might have slipped up and made a mistake when they should have said "16". This kind of mistake happens reasonably often in the MCU, and sometimes you just have to settle for some less-than-ideal explanations.

However, as I've mentioned, it might end up that the accident can no longer be placed in 2007, because the evidence is stacking up against 2007 - despite the 2007 date being so clearly shown, everything else is pointing to at least 2008.

Also, the show never addressed Billy's age in the pilot. He just looked about 17, because the actor was 17. They never said or showed how old he was. In order for Billy to have been born in August 1990 and 17 when he died is if the oil rig explosion happened between August 2007 and August 2008. However, the oil rig schematics, assuming they were revised before the explosion, place the explosion in or after September 2008, after Billy would have had his 18th birthday.

We've now had 2 seperate references to Billy being 17 at his time of death (perhaps more in Episode 6, which I haven't seen yet), so we can at least be firmly confident in that. We'll have to see which way the timeline ends up going when the season concludes.

BEJT wrote:

Thank you for all these notes. I haven't yet watched Cloak & Dagger Episode 5, because I want to watch the episodes of MCU TV in the order they come out, and I still haven't finished Luke Cage: Season 2 yet.

Someone on The Comic Board pointed out that the Wikipedia page looks like it actually says, "In 2009, after supervising the Roxxon cleanup effort in New Orleans following an oil rig explosion, Scarborough transitioned to a consulting position." So it doesn't necessarily place it in 2009, but suggests more like 2008-2009.

I don't think Billy's date of birth could really possibly say 92, it does look like 02. I think you just have to pass that off as part of Tyrone's mother's vision, with the height and weight listed on the side of the carton being that of a child, and the image being that of a child, and the date of birth just corresponding to all that - data representing a child, not Billy as he actually was.

I agree about the errors being seemingly haphazard. Although, while the evidence is still contradictory from Episode 2 onward, it's a bit closer together, all suggesting c. 2008, if not maybe 2009. The 2007 from the pilot does stick out as an outlier. Yeah, I saw that someone managed to get a better close up image of the wikipedia page. Still, it does place the explosion a bit closer to 2009 than 2007.

I agree that Billy and Tyrone's dates of birth on those milk cartons are a bit less reliable since it's only in a vision, although Billy's year of birth is so blurry that I honestly can't tell if it's "08", "09" or "00". Still, even if the years are wrong, the months and days could still be right. Meaning that Billy could have been born on February 13 and Tyrone could have been born on August 19. It will ultimately depend on when the oil rig explosion was.

BEJT wrote:

Do the mentions of "8 years" to do with Vance Caruthers and the articles have anything to do with it being 8 years since the accident, or are they just coincidental, different things which happened 8 years ago? It's seems coincidental, no mention of the oil rig explosion was made on Caruthers' page.

BEJT wrote:

Does the golf tournament and/or the anniversary of the program have anything to do with placements of main events, or are they just extra notes? They're just extra notes, I figured that I might as well mention them since I was looking at the files in that scene anyway.

BEJT wrote:

And is there not a 2011 date in the files, then, like the user on The Comic Board had said? Just 2010? It's kinda weird. O'Reilly clicks on a narcotics file dated "02/18/2010" but when the file opens, the date listed within is "02/22/2011".

It's possible that the later date is when the file was updated, since it appears to be talking about the events with the implication that it happened a while ago.

Also, all of these files are about Connors' activities as a Vice officer, which he became after Billy's death. As such, it places Billy's death sometime before February 15, 2010 (the earliest narcotics file visible on screen).

BEJT wrote:

The news thing is interesting. It's still evidence, but I guess it will have to be chalked up to a filming date, because it can't be September 2017. I guess it adds to the February 2018 evidence, because at least that would make a little bit more sense, with the events at least having happened by then, but it still doesn't really make sense considering the stories are only from 1-2 hours prior. Thanks for the evidence with the plans as well.

When it comes to the contradictory mess of Cloak & Dagger, I think we're just going to have to wait it through. If, after the finale, it's still just as unclear, I'll do a maths-y process like with Phase One to find the best possible placement. There's no point doing all of that now, only to have to keep updating it or just scrap it altogether. Yeah, I understand. I hope we get more consistent dates as the season goes on.

BEJT wrote:

Yeah, no, I wasn't saying that the O'Reilly reference meant they took place at the same time. I was just responding to Deadpooled123 when he asked if the reference meant they had to be concurrent, and saying that if they were purely the only pieces of evidence, then it would suggest they're at about the same time. But there's a lot more evidence than that, and it can't be the case - and that's not really a problem. My mistake, I misunderstood.

BJT wrote:

Right, yeah, I've seen the episodes now. The "month(s)" references were just me trying to find the reference Deadpooled123 was referring to, but it wasn't there.

It was a shame that I lost the work, but I guess the rewrite is a bit higher quality now that I already had a basis in my mind when writing the responses. I guess that's something. But yeah, I've tried to address everything again. I'm really glad that you managed to post it this time. I know what it's like to lose a post that spent a long time working on, so I'm glad that it worked out.

BEJT wrote:

Yeah he said "for the most part". It wasn't Loeb's comment that made me think it was 2017 though, just one factor. I do think though that, because Luke Cage: Season 2 being August-September 2018 would put not only this, but Daredevil: Season 3, Iron Fist: Season 2, and probably The Punisher: Season 2 (which all will likely release before Avengers 4) after Avengers: Infinity War in the timeline, I'd say that doesn't count as "for the most part". I've explained it above though, of course. Hopefully they do decide it's 2017, I definitely feel that works better. Yeah, if the majority of shows take place after Infinity War then that's obviously in conflict with the "for the most part" statement.

They also seem to be leaning towards placing Cloak and Dagger: Season 1 in February-March 2018, which only further conflicts with Jeph Loeb's statement.

BEJT wrote:

But Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. would get messed up. I would say that if necessary, the 12-06-2017 could be ignored, but we have the "Tidings of comfort of joy" mention and the few times we're told they were only away for "months", really suggesting they do get back in December. Then there's a small break, and then Episodes 14-22 are consecutive and linked with Infinity War. There is pretty much no way the jump between Episodes 13 and 14 is 6 months, because they play it like it's only been about a week, and they're still dealing with the rift, which is starting to reopen - it's not only starting to reopen a whole 6 months later. They're not only just starting to calibrate Yo-Yo's arms 6 months later. It would mean that for some reason, absolutely nothing happened in 6 months. Snow is shown in Episode 14 as well, which doesn't work with June, and Coulson still says in Episode 15 that they've only been missing for "months", when it would be over a year at this point.

We'll see how things play out, but we might just have to make compromises with Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and Thor: Ragnarok. If Ant-Man and the Wasp firmly places Infinity War, then so be it, I guess. It's just frustrating, but we'll deal with it, we always do. I've previously suggested that we might add a timeskip between Episode 18 and Episode 19 of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5.

Evidence for this is the fact that Deke's broken arm seems to have been healed by the time of the last few episode.

The time it takes for a broken arm to heal varies depending on the exact location and severity of the injury. However, these sites seem to place the average recovery period around 4-10 weeks. Although it can be much longer as well, sometimes several months even.

Also, Yo-Yo's arms were fixed in between episodes and someone mentioned that it could conceivably have taken Fitz and Simmons a while to make it work properly with her powers.

I admit that Episode 19 doesn't quite feel like it takes place months later, since the agents are still arguing about what happened with Ruby. But, if necessary, we might be able to place a timeskip that allows Episode 19-22 (and Infinity War) to occur in, for example, May 2018.

BEJT wrote:

Which episode is the 1987 date in? I've finished Episode 10 so still have 3 to go, I assume it's in one of those.

The Luke Cage past dates are all linked together, which is why I made the blog before - it's not as simple as them being 4 months before the assassination.

Moving dates which have other dates all linked to them can be messy, which is why Marvelous was asking to take some time with it. As well as this, the references section can get messed up by movements if they're done bit-by-bit instead of in one clean go. But correcting the Pistol Pete stuff and Misty's age is probably the best idea at the moment, because I'm not going to be able to sort the blog immediately - it could take a week or two, so putting some things right in the meantime is probably a good idea. It's unlikely any readers in the meantime will get caught up in the mistakes in relation to those new dates. I'll deal with any messiness when I clean up all the adjusted dates.

I will update the blog, as The Wikia Editor says. I wanted to mention earlier that I would be updating the blog with the new info, but of course I lost the previous write-up of my response. It's in Episode 11, Like I said the actual date of death is blurred out, but the date in which the report was made is very clearly visible.

BEJT wrote:

OK, the Ant-Man and the Wasp spoilers situation. I can't see the film until August 3rd, because it's not released in the U.K. until then. If I can ask for a bit of cooperation, that would be helpful. Here's a few things I'd like to ask: Thanks for helping guys. I'll post this bit again in its own message soon, to make sure everyone sees it (if they haven't been reading the whole message). Well, I haven't yet seen it nor have I seen spoilers of it. But after seeing it, I'll make sure to avoid posting any kind of spoilers.
 * When we discuss the film on this conversation, until the night of August 3rd, please can we keep things as spoiler-free as possible.
 * However, I would love to hear all timeline notes people have - how many days the film lasts, if there's any gaps, any mentions to events happening "x years ago", etc.. But could we please avoid an order of events or explanation of any scenes.
 * There is an inherent spoiler in the timeline placement of the film - how it will fit into Infinity War. I am very much expecting a connection, so I'm OK with you guys saying "It's set in the days preceding Infinity War," or something like that. If it's set during, I'd rather not know specifically, but maybe a, "Yeah, it's set in the same week as Infinity War." I'd also like to not be told specifically if the tie-in section is in the ending or in the mid-credits scene or in the post-credits scene or whatever. And I'd like to just in general not know the credits scenes.
 * I will have to edit the 2018 page a lot in the next month. However, people are going to be editing the 2018 page with Ant-Man and the Wasp spoilers, and the events could even very well be happening in the same section as Infinity War, which is the section I'll be editing. This is where Marvelous helping comes in. I'm going to copy the 2018 page, as it stands, into the Phase Three user page, and edit there. Marvelous, if I make an edit saying "2018 edit - Correcting AoS Episode 19" or something like that, could you then copy and paste it into the correct section on the actual 2018 page, with the description, "BEJT can't check the page because he is avoiding AMatW spoilers. His edit: Correcting AoS Episode 19", replacing the "Correcting AoS Episode 19" part with whatever my description is for that particular edit, basically using the template "BEJT can't check the page because he is avoiding AMatW spoilers. His edit: [X, Y, Z]"? That would be great, because it allows me to edit 2018 without stumbling upon spoilers. Hope it's not a big ask.
 * If you guys need to discuss spoilers, instead of just using spoiler tags on this discussion, could you instead perhaps open another spin-off thread to discuss it with spoilers? Because it will be hard for me to avoid the spoilers on this thread for a whole month, even with spoiler tags - I want to still be very much around on this thread, and don't want to have to keep being very careful every day, because I know I'll eventually slip up.

BEJT wrote:

Right, I've finally finished. Glad to have finally addressed everyone's messages. Looking forward to finally getting back to work on the wiki! We're all glad to have you back. :)