Thread:Marvelus/@comment-26838855-20190116120806/@comment-26838855-20190328015910

TV Canon (Marvelus)
Marvelus wrote: Maybe, bro. It's not been a good day. Sorry to hear that. Hope you're OK.

Captain Marvel (Mrmichaelt)
Mrmichaelt wrote: Yeah, I remember it was mentioned previously (Winter Solider I think?) that he reached the rank of colonel. Looking back at old notes I jotted down, usually it takes 22+ years to get to the rank... but I didn't look too deep into it. Because if Fury deployed in 1968, I think it's more likely he got the rank through "battlefield promotion" while he was serving in Vietnam for exceptional leadership in the field. Then I think they discontinued that after Vietnam for the more standardized system of promotion. Cool, thanks. Captain Marvel didn't really change anything here because 1950 was always his approximate date of birth.

Mrmichaelt wrote: We've been given enough bits of info about May's past to know that's is very possible she could have been stationed in California with Coulson. So we know from "Purpose in the Machine" she took up ice skating at age 7 because she admired Dorothy Hamill. Hamill was famous essentially in early-mid 1970s so I estimated May was born after 1965. May quits skating at age 12 and starts martial arts. William May has a photo of her from 1979. "Face My Enemy" indicates May and Coulson were at the SHIELD Academy at the same time (but different schools, Coulson was communications and May was operations) as Coulson recalled May dropped her dance elective two weeks after the course started then they reminisce about they on their first mission together, a retrieval op in Sausalito, California involving a coffee shop. May spent five hours in the San Franciso Bay until Coulson fished her out. Eventually. Or in "The Patriot", LMD May told Daisy that one of Coulson and May's earliest missions together was assigned to a mission in Madrid. The mustached Coulson lets May drive Lola but was sworn to secrecy. "The Man Behind the Shield" had that Russia mission with that irritating time stamp of "Some years ago" BUT in "Self Control" LMD May recalls a memory of May being stationed in the Alps for a month so there's that wiggle room to explain her away, lol. She was born no earlier than 1966 because the 1979 photo is of her still skating, so she's maximum 12. I did some calculating a while back based on the actress playing young May in the photo's age to work out how old May is, but presumably around 1966-1968 considering Ming-Na Wen's age.

Thanks for the Face My Enemy reminder, I've mentioned before how Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 1 is my most rusty area, but also Season 2, Part 1 other than working out the placements in 2014/15 - I couldn't tell you the details of things like referring to be at the academy together. I look forward to rewatching one day soon to familiarise myself.

But yes, thanks, and that would also suggest Coulson and May are no more than a couple of years apart in age. Since Coulson started immediately after high school, maybe May started a year or two early like Simmons.

The Man Behind the S.H.I.E.L.D. was decided as 2003. But yeah, your points do seem to suggest they could have easily be been working together in 1995 - I sort of assumed that anyway.

Mrmichaelt wrote: Eh, not really. In the movie, Fury refers to Coulson as "new guy" but it's simple to give someone that name who's fresh out of the Academy even though they met 13 years prior as a jab. Fury even chuckles a little, like an inside joke. I do think there's an implication there. It's not just the "new guy" line, Fury also discusses something (I can't remember exactly) about whether he is making a good impression on Coulson, like they've recently met. But I agree with you that in watching that scene carefully, I felt it could be written off as a bit of an inside joke, and I had written the "new guy" line off as something like Coulson had just started this particular position - got a promotion and/or moved station. I don't think he's fresh out of the academy because I believe the academy is basically the S.H.I.E.L.D. equivalent of university, so should only last a few years.

Mrmichaelt wrote: Well, we are dealing with a world with a lot of advanced tech... ;) Perhaps, though I think there's fewer assumptions involved in making the timeline fit the world rather than the world fit the timeline, so I'm inclined to feel that unless/until otherwise specified, the best assumption is just to assume it's before Captain Marvel. But if someone at Marvel spoke out and said it was some sort of eye technology I would appreciate it - with the eye problem dealt with, the scene makes more sense post-Captain Marvel, and if someone at Marvel said it then it would no longer be wild assumptions about the way the MCU world works. But as things stand, c. April 1995 seems best.

I checked with a friend who knows more about black hair than me and he said it would only take 2-4 weeks for Fury's hair to grow to Captain Marvel length, which was what I had assumed. Though I'm inclined to push the Bogota incident that extra month back from Captain Marvel just because there needs to be a little bit of time for Fury to get a bit more fresh-faced.

Mrmichaelt wrote: Agreed. It kind of makes sense Fury's reign as Director could be post 9/11. By the end of CM, I realized they didn't say who the current director was -- but not a deal breaker, not really a moment for that to be revealed. I know the wiki claims Keller was but I've put 3 sources in his Talk Page that says he was just an agent (my theory is he's the LA Field Office's SAIC like how by Iron Man 1, Coulson is a top agent). Potentially. I do get the feeling that he's been director for quite a while by 2009, but 8 years is quite a while, so I guess post-9/11 would potentially make sense. He became director somewhere between 1995 and 2009 so the best guess purely from that would be c. 2002, so yeah, post-9/11 is definitely possible.

I agree, I never saw an indication that Keller was director. I'd be interested to see a source if there is one, though, because I'd like to know who was director before Fury.

Mrmichaelt wrote: Hopefully, Bogota is asked about with someone like Feige or the Russos or Marcus & McFeely like on those EMPIRE podcasts that are conducted. Unfortunately, not in the The Empire Film Podcast interview. They spoke to Anna Boden and Ryan Fleck, and it was fairly basic this time. The only timeline thing was that they mention "6 years" again, but obviously that's mentioned plenty of times in the film and makes no difference (just we try to note down any evidence anyway for completeness' sake and the fact that it just adds a tiny bit more to it being 6 years, even if that's not necessary).

I don't think the Bogota problem is widespread enough, I don't think many people are aware of it. Sometimes YouTube creators and articles and things pick up on something and it spreads like wildfire among the fans, and sometimes things just don't. So I wasn't expecting anyone to ask about it, sadly.

Mrmichaelt wrote: I chalked it up to Gregg having to answer Q&A off the top of his head during a set visit and find his comments okay to disavow. Probably, though I do think the intention was that Fury has just met Coulson and we just got lucky with it not being explicit.

Yeah, I have no problem with ignoring the comment, it's just contradictory and can be thrown out. The significance of the comment was just that it gave us cause for concern prior to the film's release, and while I was hoping it wouldn't be made explicit, I was very much expecting it to be nonetheless. I was so pleasantly surprised when it worked out fairly OK.

Mrmichaelt wrote: I recall that "millennia" bit from some PR article like EW. I'll try and see if I can hunt down a link. Oh cool. If you ever find it, that would be good, but no pressure.

Cloak & Dagger (Marvelus, Mrmichaelt, Edward Zachary Sunrose)
Marvelus wrote: I have worked out the dates for Cloak & Dagger S1, the show begins in a Friday night on February 10th and spans over the next few weeks ending around March 1st.

You can check all in here: User:Marvelus/Cloak & Dagger, Runaways Season Two and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Season Six Timeline.

The incident from 2009 is set on February 25th. Obviously I've responded about this properly on our private chat but thank you again for your work, and I'll get to checking very soon.

Mrmichaelt wrote: For Cloak and Dagger season 2, the set visit articles are indicating the time skip will match the 8 months between the season 1 finale and season 2 premiere. So November-ish in-universe. I guess that works since the trailer I think had a shot of Evita in her cheerleader outfit? Comic Book article with Joe Pokaski and Comic Book article with Gloria Reuben 8 months, OK. Works alright for me. Safely before Infinity War, almost caught up with Runaways, and not slipping further behind real time than they already are. Let's hope it lines up.

Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Yes, Evita is shown in her cheerleading outfit, talking to some creepy guy if I remember. (Is she going to get kidnapped for the human trafficking?) I've only seen the trailer once. So I'm assuming there's some sort of cheerleading season then? It's not really a thing in the U.K..

Stark Expo 2018 and Interactive Timeline (MrRLopez)
MrRLopez wrote: I have a question. What happened with this image https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelcinematicuniverse/images/5/5b/Stark_Expo_SMH.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160927163714 of a 2018 Stark Expo that apeared in Spider-Man Homecoming set visit?? Is it going to happen? was it scrapped?

P.S. I've been working on a personal interactive timeline, I have kept it for myself but now I feel like showing it to you.

https://cdn.knightlab.com/libs/timeline3/latest/embed/index.html?source=1FLv5ckbwq4JKbZEkIbCtugKiA2blnQ8WR_VoRW4r9O8&font=Bitter-Raleway&lang=en&initial_zoom=2&height=650

I know some things are wrong and others are missing. I posted it on my twitter but not so many people has seen it. What do you think? Thankfully, it just never showed up. Could've caused some problems.

I wonder what it was meant to be. It doesn't seem to really fit with Homecoming, since, despite all of that film's timeline flaws, it never showed a hint of thinking of itself as 2018. It could have been "Next year's Expo" or something, but October 2018... I don't know. Maybe it was some sort of marketing thing they were planning and scrapped or just a tester prop for something that didn't go ahead. It was very odd.

While I don't agree with some of the placements, which you've addressed, I really like the format. It's a really cool interactive timeline layout.

Avengers: Endgame Trailer 2 (additional)
I forgot to mention this, but there's two details of note in the Endgame second trailer.

Firstly, Clint is under house arrest in the almost-certainly-flashback with Lila and his family. If the flashback is specifically to the moment of the Snap, as many are assuming it might be, this is interesting. It would mean that Clint's house arrest is still going during Infinity War, despite the fact that Scott's recently finished. In some ways this works because it matches with Natasha's comment in Infinity War, but also we've seen nothing to suggest any reason why Scott would get off before him.

I think I brought this up at the time of Ant-Man and the Wasp discussions - if not, I thought about it. But the fact that they specifically say Clint is on house arrest in Infinity War could have been taken as evidence that Scott got time off his house arrest, because if Natasha was to be taken at her word it would mean that Clint was still going while we know Scott had completed his house arrest. However, since we were deciding anyway at the time that, for now, it should be taken that Scott got 3 months off, this meant we didn't need to decide. It just left two possible interpretations when it comes to Clint: Either he's also finished and Natasha doesn't realise, or he's still going and Scott finished early. It didn't matter which was true so long as there's an explanation.

Well, if this confirms he was on house arrest, which does work better with the story if he's genuinely just unable to do anything, then it means that Scott did finish earlier than him. The most obvious thing would be that Scott got time off, but there is still perhaps the possibility of some sort of trial having happened for Clint that didn't for Scott, delaying his house arrest or something... I don't know. I wish I could just speak to a Californian lawyer.

Honestly, I think this was just a screw-up. I don't think they've worked out how Ant-Man and the Wasp fits exactly with Infinity War, I think in their minds they're just thinking, "There's an overlap, Scott's still on house arrest for Infinity War and gets off around the time of the Snap," and didn't think it through logistically, separately also thinking, "Clint's on house arrest during Infinity War." But it's worth noting nonetheless - it's a bit messy with various different possibilities and possible interpretations of what, if anything, it means for the timeline, but there's potentially something there.

Secondly, this trailer provides a final detail that I'm sure if YouTube creators were as timeline-nerdy as us would lead to hundreds of videos. Despite all the speculation, there had never actually been anything close to "confirming" time travel in the film, just a lot of assumption and people mixing up speculation with "rumours" and people posting fake "leaks" that all end up in the mixing bowl of what we may or may not know about the film (we know a lot less than people think). The set photos and castings and things suggesting past events can come from various different things, like B.A.R.F. or whatever.

But now we know for sure that the film spans at least a good number of months into at least 2019, based on Black Widow's hair, that means for sure that the film cannot end before July 2018. So with Spider-Man: Far from Home beginning after the end of Endgame and the film starting at the very latest in July 2018, that does indeed mean what we've assumed for a long time - at some point, Endgame has to jump backwards in time.

Now, this does rely on Marvel knowing what they're doing with timelines, so yes of course I'm not saying "time travel confirmed" (not that I would even if they did because you never know, Natasha could wear wigs or the Avengers could end up in some sort of situation where time passes for them and not on Earth for a while or something, I just feel "confirmed" is thrown around too loosely these days). But even just not with the specific years, they would only have to get the relative placements correct, mid-Year 1 Civil War, September Year 1 Homecoming, Spring-to-mid-Year 3 Infinity War, Summer Year 3 Far from Home. That might still be too much to assume of Marvel unfortunately, but still worth noting that theoretically we all-but know now that some sort of time travel will be involved.

I don't have a problem with time travel so long as it's a) creative and different (not just "changing the timeline" like so many fictional stories do), and b) not the solution. We'll see. I would kind of love no time travel even just so that all the people who have been careless and making assumptions and not checking sources and things and got so stuck on time travel get egg on their face😉.

Breakdown of the 10 Minutes Around the Snap, and Sunrise/Sunset Update (additional)
I put together a detailed timeline of the 10 minutes or so surrounding the Snap, putting everything - the events in Wakanda, the events on Titan, Thanos on Titan 2, the Fury and Hill credits scene, the Ant-Man and the Wasp credits scenes, and the ending of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. ' s The End - together in one linear order (I also might take a stab at using the work to make a split-screen side-by-side edit of the events synced up). It was out of interest, but also to help write the events in the correct order. So if anyone's interested, I thought I'd let you guys know.

Related to this, I've finally done something I'd been meaning to do for a while (I'd been putting it off due to a) inconvenient times in relation to sleep and b) the fact that it renders some work slightly wrong and I was sort of in denial). I had a look at the exact meanings of the other times on webpages about sunrise and sunset - finding out exactly what point in the sunrise/sunset process of dark-to-light and light-to-dark respectively that the labelled "sunrise" and "sunset" times mean, as well as finding out the meaning of the other times listed: "civil", "nautical", and "astronomical" sunrise and sunset.

From my observations at the listed times for where I'm living, it would appear to me that it works out as:
 * Sunrise:
 * Astronomical sunrise: Pitch black. From this point, it starts to no longer quite be pitch black.
 * Nautical sunrise: Very dark, but slightly less than pitch black.
 * Civil sunrise: Definitely some light. Not dark anymore, not bright yet. The "light of dawn" sort of time.
 * Sunrise: The time at which we hit full morning brightness.
 * Sunset (reverse):
 * Sunset: The time at which we stop having full day brightness.
 * Civil sunset: Definitely getting dark. Not light anymore, not properly dark yet. The pink dusk sort of time.
 * Nautical sunset: Very dark, but not quite pitch black.
 * Astronomical sunset: Hits pitch black.

So, where I've been using the "sunrise" and "sunset" times as the sort of day/night divider for a long time, I really should use the "civil sunrise" and "civil sunset" times as the divider point. I kind of knew what I was doing was going to turn out not quite right but was somewhat wilfully ignorant because I was a bit scared of finding out a lot of work was wrong and I had more work to do to correct it.

But I finally got around to addressing it. Since the timing choices are important due to how they fit together relatively rather than the times themselves, it should barely make a difference because, for example, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 4 and Jessica Jones: Season 2 overlapping is just relative to the same slightly wrong time, so changing the time shouldn't change the order in most cases. So I'm not worried and you'll hopefully understand it's way down my priorities, but from now on I will implement the correct times and if I am editing something involving timings, will try to make some corrections.

This is related because some of the Infinity War timings I worked out over summer are related to sunrise and sunset times. But again, it shouldn't really make a difference since they're just relative to the same time.

I spotted a couple of slight mistakes in my working that also need correcting, which will make a tiny bit of difference, but I'm not going to do it yet. Once Infinity War ' s placement is more finalised, then I'll likely have to update the timings anyway because the date will be different so the sunrise/sunset times are different anyway. I'm just going to wait until then so I don't have to change it twice, it's very nearly dead-on now anyway so it's not really a problem. Obviously when I do update it, I'll correctly use civil sunrise/sunset this time.

Also, civil sunrise/sunset should help. The fact that it's lighter earlier than previously considered and darker later than previously considered means there's a bit more time for events to transpire between sunrise and sunset in the different time zones.

Canon Books (additional)
I now own Marvel's Avengers: Infinity War - The Cosmic Quest Volume One: Beginning and Marvel's Avengers: Infinity War - The Cosmic Quest Volume Two: Aftermath, as well as already owning Marvel's Ant-Man and the Wasp: The Heroes' Journey. The only one I don't have now is Marvel's Avengers: Infinity War: The Heroes' Journey. I'll make my way through the books soon.

However, there might now be a fifth book. I forgot to mention, but I noticed this, Marvel's Captain Marvel: Higher, Further, Faster. by Liza Palmer. From the film-specific logo and the Instagram post's description, it would seem this is another new canon novel.

And I also forgot to post this at the time, but it appears there might be a Spider-Man: Far from Home novel as well, though it might just be a novelisation.