Thread:Marvelus/@comment-26838855-20190116120806/@comment-26838855-20190317002359

Captain Marvel (Marvelus, Steve993, CirUmeUela, Mrmichaelt, Edward Zachary Sunrose, Assassin1and2)
Marvelus wrote: I am very sure Coulson is well aware of the Kree, and Fury ordered him to investigate the Kree because he knew something good would come out of it.

Fury just erased Coulson's memories about the Krees after his death. That has never been a problem and maybe that is something they will point out in Season Six or Seven from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Eh, maybe. The point is that this film was far less continuity-problematic than it could have been.

Steve993 wrote: Not sure how accurate it'll end up being but thanks for trying to calculate the ages as best you could. I was never good at math so reading your calucations felt as complex to me as Mar-Vell's formula lol.

I do wonder what Fury's service record really is? From the Army to possible CIA and then to SHIELD. Taking out the prequel comics for a moment that I again don't consider canon but some people disagree if he was born in 1950 (I tried catching the date when I saw him pull out the ID badge but couldn't get it and I was a glad someone caught it) then when would he have achieved the rank of Colonel roughly? Did he join the Vietnam War or would he have been too late? There's a bit more left to explore certainly before and after Captain Marvel and I hope a Disney Streaming Service Series does that. Ha, sorry it was complicated😂 but thanks. It's the best estimate I can give for now. Obviously it will shift a bit as we see Endgame and as Brie appears in more films and whatever but I like having an estimate for now.

Nick Fury: Spies Like Us is objectively not official canon. Some consider the "inspired canon" comics canon-until-proved-otherwise but it's still not official canon (and frankly, I feel has also been proved anyway). Many of the comics are canon, all the ones listed here, but the rest are "inspired canon" which is not official.

I was going to include this at the bottom but since you mentioned Fury's date of birth, New Rockstars' breakdown included a picture from the cinema of the shot with Fury's ID, and his date of birth is indeed July 4, 1950. I caught the 1950 in the cinema but someone else on Fury's page said they caught the full date, and they were right. He shares a birthday with Steve.

He could have caught the tail end of Vietnam before the U.S. pulled out in March 1973, when he was 22.

I'm not good on army ranks and things, but Samuel L. Jackson shares your line of thought. He's been talking recently about how he wants to explore the things from Fury's past that he references in this film.

CirUmeUela wrote: So I really enjoyed Captain Marvel! I'm glad it's doing so well despite this idea that "so many people" hate it or don't like what Brie Larson said. I won't get into that here, but it's good to see that the haters aren't affecting this movie's success very much. I really enjoyed the movie and thought Brie Larson did a great job. It's definitlely mostly June 1995 like you guys said, and we also have some stuff in 1989, as well as some more stuff in the 80s and possibly late 70s when Carol was a young girl, like on the go kart.

I was a bit dissapointed there was no direct reference to Agents of SHIELD but I wasn't really expecting them to directly tie it in. I thought one of those agents in the beginning with Coulson could have easily been May, but Coulson just joined apparently in this movie and I don't know if May would have been a part of SHIELD yet. The inhibitor used on Vers is similar to the inhibitors used on Daisy in SHIELD season six, however. And Kree blood revived Brie just like it revived Coulson. Also someone said that the Kree writing in Mar'Vell's notebook does resemble the Kree writing that Coulson wrote on walls in Season 2.

Does anything here contradict AoS? I remember someone mentioning that Coulson said he met Fury at some date, does this line up with that? It's also nice that Fury didn't become director by the end of the movie. That makes more sense realistically. 6th biggest worldwide opening ever, 5th biggest non-U.S. opening ever, "A" CinemaScore (unswayed by attackers), fresh audience rating despite all the attacking, IMDb rating in the 7s despite all the attacking. I'm irrationally proud of the film😂!

I'll work out the exacts of the flashback dates soon but since this is mid-1995, the 1989 stuff is presumably mid-1989, and the wiki claims that Mckenna Grace and London Fuller are credited as Carol at specific ages (13 and 6 respectively) so since I've worked out she was born around February 1966-ish, if I can verify that those ages are true (13 seems a bit old for the Mckenna Grace stuff since she was only 11 going on 12) then that shouldn't be too hard.

One of those agents could have been May, I agree. I still feel that - and I know schedules and whatever - but some of the agents on the Helicarrier in Age of Ultron should have been Coulson's team (minus Coulson himself to avoid the problem of "But film-only audiences won't understand). I know, I know, schedules, but still. It would just have been great to do that or indeed to have May in this, because it in no way impacts the film-only audiences' experience (they don't need to have seen the show to understand, they'd just think "random S.H.I.E.L.D. agents" like they do anyway) but is so brilliant as an extra detail for the fans. I don't think we ever found out when she joined S.H.I.E.L.D. but there's a very strong chance she's there by 1995.

The inhibitor is likely just coincidence, but it's nice to make the connection, especially since it was a Kree (Kasius) who used it on Daisy. The Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. one I seem to remember was really embedded in Daisy with like wires and things whereas this seemed to just pop off with a strong tug, but then again the Kree have 96 years to have improved the technology by the time Daisy is given an inhibitor.

I don't think Kree blood revived Carol. The Kree language I think both the show and the films took from the comics, hence the resemblance, but yeah it definitely fits fine.

There's some implications that kind of contradict Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - it's implied that Fury and Coulson have recently met despite the fact that they should have known each other well for 13 years, but it's not outright stated, and Coulson mentions the Kree despite not really knowing them in 2013/14 but he never meets a proper blue Kree so wouldn't recognise them and someone theorised on here, sorry I can't remember who, that T.A.H.I.T.I. could have intentionally also removed Coulson's memories of Kree as part of the memory-editing making sure he doesn't remember what happened. Marvelus mentioned it above.

Mrmichaelt wrote: Although Mallrats filmed in spring 1995 (imdb says March 6 to April 12, 1995) in Jersey, the simple solution is that Stan was on his way to LA reshoots. It'd make sense for some reshoots to happen in June if you want to stick to the calendar behind Fury in the Rambeau household. The problem is the train. But you could argue maybe it was a soft launch in June but the train officially started in August to hold onto the real life timeline. EDIT: One mistake I think is the Street Fighter arcade at Panchos. That version, Champion Edition, came out in 1992 and we know the crash was 1989.

When Carol mentioned the Kree at the phone booth, that seems really likely that was already the Skrull and not Coulson. But yep when is said and done after the reports are filed, Coulson asks Fury if the Kree really was responsible for his eye and Fury does the 'I can't confirm nor deny' answer.

I didn't see anything to contradict AOS thankfully. To answer CirUmeUela, In Agents of SHIELD, "Providence", Coulson reveals Fury recruited him just out of high school. Since we know Coulson's DOB, we know this to have been in May 1982. Then from that point, Coulson was at SHIELD Academy for x amount of years and Fury was Coulson and Garrett's CO. We assume that was the rest of the 80s because Garrett took the IED in 1988 (since in "Ragtag" he admits he's been chasing his goal for 25 years) so they likely became field agents in the late 80s. From "The Bridge" in season 1, we already knew Coulson was a field agent in the 90s from Agent Shane's file. That checks.

AOS continuity is fine, it's the Bogota incident in Winter Soldier that's more of a question. Since in that one, Pierce says Fury was Deputy Chief at the time but now I don't know now if he specially said which acronym that was, for the CIA or for SHIELD. Heck, you could even speculate that Pierce saw him as a pawn and poached him to SHIELD and he started out in the 80s and ended up assigned to threat assessment in 1995. Thanks, I couldn't find the filming dates for Mallrats but I guessed around 6-9 months before release for a film like that. 6-7 then. Sure, reshoots works, or just filmed later in the MCU.

I don't think Windows 95 or the train line or I'm Only Happy When It Rains are a big deal. They're annoying, but I guess they just arrived a couple of months early in the MCU. I think the June calendar can't be ignored, and maybe the main events are June 29-July 1, 1995, as late as possible.

I heard there was a problem with the arcade game in Poncho's being anachronistic, thanks for mentioning which game it was because I had forgotten. I'm going to make a list at the bottom now that I've found some more details and things and got a friend to note which songs were in-universe and which were not of all the anachronisms and the things that work fine (also for adding real events and releases to the timeline as usual).

Thanks. I knew it was Providence where he mentioned it (and also All the Madame's Men), forgot about the The Bridge detail about being a field agent. I'm very rusty on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 1 timeline details, probably more than any other MCU show just because when I watched it in 2014 I hadn't really got into the timeline yet and I've only rewatched odd episodes since.

CirUmeUela wrote: Do we know for sure if the Bogota incident was before or after Captain Marvel? This image shows him with both eyes, but maybe he went through a phase of trying the false eyes that Coulson gave him at the end of the movie. Although it probably makes more sense for it to be before Captain Marvel. But then again, didn't Pierce promote Fury to Director of SHIELD after the Bogota incident? That would make it after Captain Marvel.

Something else I forgot to mention from the Thanos novel is that it goes into the two methods of space travel that we see in the MCU. It mentions that jump gates are the more common way to travel but that lightspeed engines are another form of travel. This is less common because it is expensive and takes more time. It was also cool seeing the same jump gates in Captain Marvel. This was mentioned above, I initially thought "What if he tries glass eyes for a bit" but then as I was responding on here, realised that presumably wouldn't work since he still has his bad eye in The Winter Soldier and I would strongly assume you can't just replace a bad eye once it's been removed for a glass eye.

I would just say it's shortly before Captain Marvel (enough time for a bit of hair to grow in by Captain Marvel) and he was just really tired and not looking his best.

Interesting, while the novel is non-canon that matches nicely.

Marvelus wrote: Yeah. It is just a continuity mistake that has to be overlooked. It is not a "8 years later" thing, but it is due to Marvel not planning back in 2008 that Fury would lose his eye in 1995. Well, not necessarily "overlooked" so much as just fudged a bit. It's wrong, but it's not a huge deal. I mean, even in The Winter Soldier the photo is a bit weird because he looks older than he did just 4-and-a-bit years prior in the timeline in Iron Man. In The Winter Soldier he is very grizzled and grim, and he still looks like that in the photo, but in Iron Man he comes across as a bit more youthful to me (which is also why, unlike some people, I can see the transition from Captain Marvel Fury to now, because I don't think 2009 Fury is that significantly different in character to 1995 Fury).

Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Fury still has his bad eye in the present. Once you put in a glass eye, at least to my understanding, you scoop out the flesh one that was already there.

As for jump gates, they were introduced in Guardians 2, if not Guardians 1. So we definitely would've seen them in this movie.

As for lightspeed engines, Mar-Vell's was supposed to be the first, thus why the Kree AND the Skrulls were fighting so viciously over it. So the Thanos novel (which is already non-canon) might have an inconsistency there if they're widespread and already exist. Yeah that was my assumption, you can't replace the eye. I'm happy to just assume the photo is say April 1995.

They weren't in Guardians of the Galaxy, just Vol. 2 I believe.

Good thought, the mention of a "lightspeed engine" at all made me say that that fits nicely but I hadn't considered that yeah, it's likely not very common at all. Oh well, it's not canon so there's no problem.

Mrmichaelt wrote: With some wiggle room, it can still take place before 1995. Pierce didn't say he promoted Fury to Director, he said "That photo was taken five years after Nick and I met, when I was at State Department in Bogota. E.L.N. rebels took the embassy, and security got me out, but the rebels took hostages. Nick was Deputy Chief of the S.H.I.E.L.D. station there, and he comes to me with a plan. He wants to storm the building through the sewers. I said, "No, we'll negotiate." Turned out, the E.L.N. didn't negotiate, so they put out a kill order. They stormed the basement, and what do they find? They find it empty. Nick had ignored my direct order, and carried out an unauthorized military operation on foreign soil, and saved the lives of a dozen political officers, including my daughter." Then Cap asks if he gave him a promotion. Basically, you take away that overall he was still an agent but at that Bogota station he was deputy chief. Then for the promotion, he was reassigned and seems to wherever like the LA Field Office doing threat assessment. As for the photo, yeah, just write off as he was bald before 1995 and the photo added 20 years. Thank you for the full quote. I agree, maybe April 1995-ish.

He does say he's worked a desk job for 6 years which would suggest it would have to be as far back as 1989 to be before Captain Marvel, but maybe it's acceptable to let one event go. Perhaps Fury was indeed in a desk job and he went to Pierce with the plan not just because he felt it was the right thing but also wanting to take some action, but Pierce denied him. He carried out the mission anyway, but it wasn't in his job description, he was still in a desk job since 1989.

Marvelus wrote: I still think is a continuity error.

Change my mind 😂😂 It is. Well, I don't think an error in the sense of they slipped up, they were probably aware but just thought it was an acceptable change. It's an error in that it is still wrong, but hey, it's far from the MCU ' s most egregious.

Mrmichaelt wrote: I think I said my fill already since January 28. lol. Assassin1and2 wrote: Yeah it's a mistake but it's also a photo and not a flashback. It can be ignored if you wish and just imagine he's wearing an eye patch. Fury could also be wearing one of the prosthetic eyes Coulson brings to him. I personally wouldn't mind if they photoshoped eye patch on that image and released it on Blu-Ray (like Star Wars Special Editions) or social media, but it doesn't really break the timeline for me. Eh, there's a slipper slope there you don't necessarily want to go down with "special editions" and the like, and obviously this wouldn't be my top change priority. I wouldn't complain if they did it, but I feel like either you correct all the continuity errors throughout to justify "special editions" or just leave it. And being a bit of a canon purist (I don't want extended editions, for example, because it calls things into question), I'm fine with them just leaving things be. The only one I was particularly wishing for (but never really expected) was a change to Homecoming to change "8" to "4", a) to tell the world "It's wrong" and b) because it's not like in a scene, it's just text, so the canon status of the actual events of the universe wouldn't be affected.

I think it's easier to assume he just looks older that day than he does in June 1995 than to turn a blind eye, pun not intended, and pretend he just has an eye-patch.h

Assassin1and2 wrote: Bogota is definitely set after Captain Marvel, maybe 1996-97. Hmm I wouldn't "definitely" personally.

Mrmichaelt wrote: True. It could be a false eye. I mean, by the time of the events of The Winter Soldier, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that when Fury devised the retinal scan failsafe - he at some point secretly had the false eye removed and his damaged eye put back in then adopted the eye patch. Hmm I don't know, this is tough.

Cloak & Dagger (Rman823, Mrmichaelt)
Rman823 wrote: Not sure if this has been brought up but I'm rewatching Cloak & Dagger in preparation for Season 2 and noticed that in episode 1 Tyrone has an advertisement for a Free Comic Book Day on his mirror for Saturday, May 6th, 2017 (which matches the real-world date). So, we have even more confirmation that Season 1 is in 2017. Plus with it being February he could easily have an advertisement for an event that would be a few months away. Awesome thank you, I didn't know about that! I'll be rewatching soon because my write-up output is about to ramp up as most of my hardest period of work is over on Monday and I'm going to try to get right up to at least a good chunk of Cloak & Dagger: Season 1 checks by the time Season 2 starts in a few weeks.

Avengers: Endgame (me, Rman823, Marvelus, Edward Zachary Sunrose)
BEJT wrote: Will respond probably tomorrow but Feige finally got a piece of timeline info spot on, not accidentally thinking of the beginning of Endgame as 2019, but rather 2018. Rman823 wrote: Thank God. Hopefully he also realizes that Far From Home should also be Summer 2018 rather than 2019. The interviewer might have prompted him by saying specifically "23 years", I don't know. And I'm not sure Feige gets involved with timeline stuff. But it's not bad news.

Marvelus wrote: That is great. I thought that it was bad news until I read all your comment. Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: That is amazing to hear. It was just encouraging. I mean, it should be obviously 2018, but I absolutely wouldn't have been surprised by an absent-minded 2019 calculation rather than 2018.

References That Work Out Fine

 * Blockbuster Video.
 * Changed name in December 1996.
 * True Lies, including Jamie Lee Curtis and Arnold Schwarzenegger.
 * Released July 1994 and in Blockbusters by early 1995.
 * Hook.
 * Released December 1991.
 * The Right Stuff.
 * Released February 1984.
 * The Hudsucker Proxy.
 * Heard this is shown. Released March 1994 and in Blockbusters by late 1994.
 * Jumpin' Jack Flash.
 * Heard this is shown. Released October 1986.
 * Whatta Man by Salt-n-Pepa played in-universe.
 * Released December 1993.
 * Rock the Vote.
 * Occurred in 1992. Also "11:00 THURSDAY AUGUST 29" poster from presumably 1991.
 * Possibly a poster for an upcoming 1996 election?
 * Mallrats being filmed.
 * Released October 1995, filming (perhaps reshoots or just a bit later in the MCU than real world) in June works fine.
 * Nine Inch Nails.
 * Formed 1988.
 * Waterfalls by TLC played in-universe.
 * Released May 1995.
 * Brad Pitt.
 * Mentioned as a sex symbol, which he became around Thelma & Louise in May 1991.
 * The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air.
 * Began September 10, 1990.
 * Space Invaders.
 * Released July 1978.
 * Happy Days, including the Fonz.
 * Began January 1974.
 * Hannibal Lecter.
 * Can't remember if it's a specific reference to a moment from a specific Hannibal film or just the character in general or whatever but should work out fine, be it reliant on just the books or just Manhunter the film or even The Silence of the Lambs the film.
 * Nerf.
 * Started 1969.
 * Please Mr. Postman by The Marvelettes.
 * Released August 1961.

Anachronisms

 * Los Angeles Metro Green Line.
 * Opened August 1995.
 * Only Happy When It Rains by Garbage played in-universe.
 * I believe it's played on the radio in Poncho's, which is a problem since it was released on an album in August 1995 and as a single in September 1995.
 * Street Fighter II: Champion Edition.
 * Released March 1992, scene from no later than 1989.
 * Windows 95.
 * Released August 1995.

Mixture

 * Come As You Are by Nirvana.
 * Released March 1992 as a single, September 1991 on Nevermind. Carol must know it because it's in the Supreme Intelligence scene, but she can't have heard it before she left in 1989. Could have heard it since she got back, just off-screen. But apparently Nevermind wasn't released on vinyl until 1996... but perhaps the vinyl is just a depiction of how the song can be playing in the Supreme Intelligence realm-thing.

Can't Remember If In-Universe or Not But Safe

 * Connection by Elastica.
 * Released October 1994.
 * Man on the Moon by R.E.M..
 * Released November 1992.
 * Crazy on You by Heart.
 * Released August 1975, scene is at least 1976 so works fine.
 * Kiss Me Deadly by Lita Ford.
 * Released 1988, scene is up to 1989 so works fine.
 * You Gotta Be by Des'Ree.
 * Released March 1994.

Not In-Universe

 * Just a Girl by No Doubt, just soundtrack I believe.
 * Celebrity Skin by Hole, just soundtrack I believe.

Not a Problem

 * Fury's character.
 * Some people have claimed this doesn't fit into continuity. I've discussed why I think it fits fine.
 * Fury naming the Avengers after Carol.
 * I've seen some people claim this is a retcon. I'm not sure they understand retcons, it's just a reveal. And it actually felt very natural, we kind of knew going it that the events of the film would inspire Fury to start the Avenger Initiative since this is seemingly what Fury and Coulson are referring to in Iron Man when they talk about a wider universe, other superheroes, and it not being their first rodeo. So him naming it after her made perfect sense and I thought was a beautiful moment, like she's sort of like the mother of the Avengers.
 * Something to do with Kree?
 * I've seen people claim there's "Kree retcons". I... have no idea what that would be.

Not Really a Problem

 * How Fury lost his eye.
 * Not the original intent of the line, a bit of creative license, but not a contradiction.
 * Coulson and the Kree.
 * Mostly OK, and way way better than I feared. Can work fairly easily.
 * "Where was Carol during events in the last 23 years?"
 * Not a continuity error. Sure, might warrant a little more explanation (which is also rumoured to be coming in Avengers: Endgame), but there could be plenty of reasons why she didn't get involved in certain events, which I've gone into more depth with on a discussion page.
 * Fury and Coulson's relationship.
 * Clark Gregg said they meet for the first time in the film, which was problematic since Coulson says in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. that he was recruited by Fury straight out of high school, so in 1982, and Fury trained him. But it's never made explicit in the film that they only just met and there's wiggle room for that to work fine, which was a big relief.
 * Fury calls S.H.I.E.L.D. "S.H.I.E.L.D." rather than its full name as they are doing in Iron Man.
 * Other one-shots and flashbacks and things have already had this problem, it's not exclusive to Captain Marvel. I mean, there's no way it took them 60 years to realise it shortened to S.H.I.E.L.D. - as Ward jokes, frankly, it's not even coincidence, it was clearly crafted to intentionally spell out S.H.I.E.L.D. even in-universe - so Coulson is likely just joking in Iron Man. But even if not, I believe a comic, I think non-canon but still helpful, hinted once about an explanation to this, that they all want to call it S.H.I.E.L.D. but Fury refuses. So you could take it that when Fury becomes director he goes traditional and wants people to use the full name, but no one really takes to it. And in 1995, he just didn't have a problem with it.
 * "Last year Earth had a visitor from another planet who had a grudge match that levelled a small town. We learned that not only are we not alone, but we are hopelessly, hilariously, outgunned," suggesting Fury only discovered aliens in 2010.
 * Can just assume that Fury is talking about the world at large when he says "we", not S.H.I.E.L.D., since they didn't know about aliens until 2010. Also they didn't have the technology to start Phase Two until the Destroyer came to Earth, and he's not going to stop and reveal his experience in 1995 that no other agents had and is secret and not the point.

Bit of a Problem

 * Fury's appearance and eye compared with the The Winter Soldier photo.
 * Still being discussed.

More Links Just to Be Noted (additional)

 * Lorraine Cink, who does't actually speak for Marvel in this sort of way but is still at Marvel so not entirely disposable, says the Kree-Skrull war has been going for "millennia".
 * Anna Boden and Ryan Fleck say it's 1995. Not in doubt but just technically the film never explicitly and directly says it so it's worth just noting the actual confirmations.