Thread:Marvelus/@comment-26838855-20190116120806/@comment-26838855-20190406172017

FitzSimmons (Edward Zachary Sunrose, Mrmichaelt)
Mrmichaelt wrote: Yes, that's along the lines of what I was I thinking. As for your last point, I'm sure Candyman intended on joining S.H.I.E.L.D. when he enrolled in the Academy but he washed out and never did. Being a student at the academy puts on you track to becoming a member of the organization at large but it doesn't make you a fully fledged bonafide member. But to your point, I think you're probably overthinking it. All Bakshi said was, "Why did you join S.H.I.E.L.D. in the first place?" and Simmons replied, "I was a 17-year-old girl with two Phds and a million questions. S.H.I.E.L.D. had the resources to help me answer them." An academy graduate's decision to join S.H.I.E.L.D. is a formality like an athlete signing a letter of intent. I guess, I probably am overthinking it. Your suggestion then pretty much works, even if it doesn't quite feel to me like it's the writers' intention. I think there might just be some inconsistency involved here that you've managed to work around. But hey, that absolutely doesn't mean it's wrong, it works and the possible writer intention doesn't, so...

Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: 2. Simmons and Fitz definitely met on their first day at the Academy. This is mentioned in late Season 4 by Fitz, when he's talking to Ophelia on the beach after waking up from the Framework. It stuck out in my mind, because AIDA specifically switched Simmons out with herself in that one moment. Ah good to know I'm not completely making things up. I imagine I remembered that and the reason I was thinking it was said by Simmons was because she got the other lines about "17-year-old girl" and "10 years".

I wouldn't say "definitely" since there's a bit of assumption there, that is the implication. But it's tough, what Mrmichaelt and I have discussed also seems very plausible.

Mrmichaelt wrote: I interpreted that as a change made by AIDA in the Framework but it didn't happen for real. Like in real timeline, Simmons thought about but didn't introduce herself to Fitz on their first day so they didn't meet until they were in their 2nd year, age 16. But for the Framework, AIDA saw that memory and changed it so she was at the Academy, too, and introduced herself to Fitz on the first day and it dovetailed from there. And essentially in the Framework, he never knew Simmons.

For reference: AIDA said, "Every decision you made was your own. Besides restoring your relationship with your father, the only other change I made in your life was introducing myself. Fitz says, "First day of classes at the Academy." AIDA says "Befriending you, trying to understand what it felt like to connect with someone but I wasn't actually able to feel anything until today." Yeah that's definitely possible since your suggestion that we've worked out does seem to be the best fit. I'm not going to draw any conclusions immediately since it's not urgent.

Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: I guess it's possible. But at least to me, it came off like AIDA had completely taken over Simmons' place in Fitz's life, starting with their first meeting. I think that's the intention, and I do wonder if in the writers' minds it is just "they met around 16/17 on the first day of the academy" and it just hasn't been fully thought through, but the somewhat contradictory evidence can be reasoned out with Mrmichaelt's suggestion, just not sure if it's what's intended.

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 2/Avengers: Infinity War (Rman823)
Rman823 wrote: Well, I've been in the middle of my rewatch and at the same time have been trying to finetune my own timeline. Once I've got to Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Season 2 and Age of Ultron, I noticed issues with some placements that I think I found a way to work around.

Season 2 Episode 12 (Who You Really Are)- The episode is currently stretched over 4 days with the 4th day being when Mac kidnaps Hunter. However, both of them are wearing the same clothes they were wearing the day before. So I now have the episode taking place over April 8th-10th rather than April 8th-11th.

Season 2 Episode 16 (Afterlife)- The episode currently has everything taking place over April 17th and April 19th-20th, 2015. However, everyone is wearing the same clothes on the 17th as they are the 19th. I think a better solution would be to place the final scene of Episode 15 (One Door Closes) where Hunter finds Coulson a day after everything else rather than two. As well as the opening scene of Afterlife where Coulson and Hunter steal the car.

This would play out as:

April 14th- The entirety of Love in the Time of Hydra (fits with Taco Tuesday) and One Door Closes until the stinger.

April 15th- Hunter finds Coulson at the beach, they steal a car in South Carolina and head to the Retreat in Canada to get Skye.

April 17th- Skye wakes up after two days in Afterlife (as she is told) and Coulson and Hunter arrive at the Retreat (would also fit with Hunter telling Coulson he was gone a week which is now exact, as it happens on the 10th).

April 18th- Gonzalez's team face off against Coulson and Hunter at the Retreat.

So, Episode 15 would be April 14th-15th, 2015  and Episode 16 would be April 15th, 2015, April 17th-18th, 2015.

Season 2 Episode 17 (Melinda)- The episode currently takes place over two days. However, I believe that the scene with Fitz contacting Coulson at the end should still be on the first day. Due to Episode 16, the episode is now April 19th, 2015.

Season 2 Episode 18 (The Frenemy of My Enemy)- The episode currently picks up on the same day that Episode 17 ends. However, I think it works better if the scene where Coulson rescues Fitz is a day after Fitz contacts him. The episode is still over two days, placing it April 20th-21st, 2015.

Now here's where things get interesting,

Season 2 Episode 19 (The Dirty Half Dozen)- The episode follows the last and begins the same day. Throughout the episode, everyone is wearing the same clothing. Which I think is impossible with the episode's current placement over 4 days. I think the best option is that the episode spans 2 days. The majority, the same day Episode 18 ends while the scene with Coulson and Hill sending in the Avengers being in the early hours of the 2nd. So, April 21st-22nd, 2015.

Avengers: Age of Ultron- I believe that the Avengers retrieving the scepter should be on the same day that Coulson informs Hill. We know that the film has to begin on a Wednesday since the next day at Avengers Tower, Tony tells Bruce they have a few days with the Scepter due to Thor's plans to take it to Asgard after the party on Saturday (Tony asks Cho if she will be attending the party on Saturday). April 22nd, 2015 was a Wednesday so this works out perfectly. The scene which currently takes place the day after the party (Sunday) actually shows on both Natasha and Bruce's computer screens that it is now Thursday. It does make sense given that Hill tells Steve all the havoc that Ultron has been causing and it does work better if this took place over Sunday-Wednesday rather than the morning after the party. So, Age of Ultron's new placement is April 22nd-25th, 2015, April 30th-May 3rd. Which is still just around the film's release.

Just thought I would share some of my evidence for why I changed all of these on my personal timeline. Thanks for your input. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 2 was pretty much the first thing I ever worked on on here (along with Ant-Man) so my process has come a long way. I was aware it's likely not perfect, the big problem back when we did it in 2015 was convincing people that the majority of the season was all set in close proximity in March-May 2015, more than the specifics of the dates. Then a while back we noticed that the Tuesday didn't line up so did a bit of shifting to get it roughly correct but admittedly it's far from the most thoroughly worked-out, with the placements more "It's pretty much correct, give or take only up to a couple of days in a few places." I intended to review it when I get around to rewatching and doing my major project.

OK so to make more practical sense of your suggestion, I'm checking that what you're suggesting is (for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and Age of Ultron events, not concurrent Jessica Jones or whatever else events): It's definitely worth considering working some of these changes into it in some way.
 * Current April 11th (Episode 14 event) → April 10th
 * April 11th (Episode 15 events) unchanged
 * April 12th unchanged
 * April 14th unchanged
 * April 15th unchanged
 * Current April 16th → April 15th
 * April 17th unchanged
 * Current April 19th → April 17th
 * Current April 20th → April 18th
 * Current April 21st → April 19th
 * Current April 22nd → April 19th
 * Current April 23rd → April 20th
 * Current April 24th → April 20th
 * Current April 25th → April 21st
 * Current April 26th → April 22nd
 * Current April 28th → April 22nd
 * Current April 29th → April 22nd
 * Current May 2nd → April 25th
 * Current May 3rd → April 30th
 * Current May 4th → May 1st
 * Current May 5th → May 2nd
 * Current May 6th → May 3rd
 * And knock-on effect for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: 2,19-22, 4,722 Hours, and 3,1-3,8

I want to quickly check/say a few things:
 * So you think when Mack wakes Hunter he's had him for like 36 hours?
 * I believe Hunter reuniting with Coulson on the beach being pushed later was so that the "week" line works better because he's not really saying it's currently a week since he was taken, but rather that he was gone for a week, I believe.
 * Again, it's been a long time but I thought Hunter and Coulson picking up Fitz had to be the day after the previous episode.
 * The Dirty Half Dozen is only across 3 days currently, not 4.
 * We also wanted the Avengers to be the same day as Hill being notified, if not the day after. I'll mention that in a second.
 * Avengers: Age of Ultron is, I think I've mentioned this before, one of about four films which I have not checked for myself in terms of number of days that pass, working out time zones and whatever. Obviously I've worked on all the films' placements, but the exact number of days for Iron Man 3, Captain America: The Winter Soldier, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Avengers: Age of Ultron (all placed on the timeline pages before I joined) I've never checked. Ant-Man was my first film on the site, so the previous films had all not been checked, but I've done a lot of work on Phase One since so worked all of those out, and happened to have time last time I watched Thor: The Dark World to check the timings. I'm going to check the timings of these four films when I revisit them in the coming weeks and check that it all lines up with what older users worked out (a bit worried about if it doesn't because that has a knock-on effect for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. through to December 2015, but I guess it's better to get it over with, can't remain blissfully ignorant forever).
 * It's not just that they say a few days, 3 days is specifically shown in Age of Ultron. The scene of them returning to the tower has to be Wednesday.
 * Can you let me know a rough time code or the exact scene for where this Thursday date shows up? Will look out for that.

OK, yeah, so basically what happened was we worked out, I believe, that if the Hill scene was going to be right before the opening of Age of Ultron, then the Taco Tuesday scene would naturally place on a Monday or something like that, and while some days could be slipped in, none could be removed so it couldn't just be the day later - we had to add 6 days if we were going to have it be a Tuesday, pulling it back to the Tuesday before rather than managing to push it to the next day, which I think we had worked out was impossible.

It might have been Sunday and adding 5 days, not Monday and adding 6 days, I can't remember exactly.

But yeah, we needed to slip in a few days between 2,14 and Age of Ultron. That's why some episodes ended up stretched a bit and the Hill scene had to be a bit before the Avengers' attack and the attack had to be assumed to be the night (by New York time) before they get back on Wednesday.

When we made that edit, it wasn't a huge project, it was more of a "from memory" thing of briefly having a look at the days and trying to work out how we can stretch things. It wasn't done with rewatching the episodes and taking thorough notes and things, it was just trying to get things pretty much in the right place.

I don't have the time right now to go back and review all of that but when I get around to my rewatch and thorough notes or my big compilation project, I'll make sure to come back to this suggestion. Sorry for not acting immediately.

Cloak & Dagger: Season 2 Premiere (Mrmichaelt)
Mrmichaelt wrote: Will rewatch but my first impression was the first two episodes of Cloak & Dagger season 2 take place over roughly 3 weeks if those group meetings are weekly like Lia [src?] said at the end of the first meeting. I wonder if that may come in handy this season given Tandy and Melissa keep going to it through the course of the season... Yup, it's helpful. While technically she only says "next week", the implication would be that yes, it's weekly meetings. There's three sessions shown in Episodes 1 and 2 so it's a bit over 2 weeks from start to finish.

Episode 2 is going to be fun to work out the order for... jumps all over the place.

Aside from that, only other timeline details I caught - the IDs Tandy looks at all expire in 2022 so that works absolutely fine, and Mikayla Bell's date of birth is "8-25-1992".

And then the mentions of "8 months" in Episode 2 referring back to Mardi Gras, February 28, 2017, so yes, this should be around late October/early November.

8 months since February 28th would suggest late October, but the mentions in articles and things (also mentioned here) of it being 8 months since the end of Season 1, March 1, 2017, would make it early November. So anyway, we have a ballpark. If we don't get more details (we likely will) I can work out exactly how these calculations would come together to place the events.

Russos' Chronological Order (me, Marvelus, Edward Zachary Sunrose)
BEJT wrote: Will reply later, but the Russos have posted to watch Captain America: The First Avenger as the start of a chronological order MCU rewatch on Instagram, and it looks like they'll be posting every day with the order.

This is going to go very wrong, isn't it...? Marvelus wrote: I am very trustful that the Russos know what they are doing. Not in this, I'm not. They're not overseers in any way for the MCU at large and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they just pulled this from some website, thinking it's just a bit of fun and not about how seriously some people might take it/the implications.

Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: 3. The chronological order of the movies is pretty universally agreed upon, and clearly the Russos aren't going to post the TV shows on their social media (maybe Agent Carter, since Joe directed one of the episodes, but that opportunity's passed now that they've jumped to the 90's with the Captain Marvel post), so it shouldn't get too confusing for the GP. Oh I'm not worried about the TV shows, I know it's just the films - but I don't think the film order is agreed upon at all. Every time I see another attempt at a chronological order it is a) different and b) still wrong.

Most watch orders seem to, rather than working from the ground up, start with the release order and then shuffle things a bit - but feel reluctant to deviate too much unless they know with certainty. So they'll just go "OK Captain America: The First Avenger is actually first" (Which I disagree with because objectively speaking it takes place in 2011 but it's understandable) and then "The bit with Tony Stark in The Incredible Hulk is after Iron Man 2 so let's just switch those two" but are too scared to go further and put The Incredible Hulk after Thor as well because it starts to deviate too much from the release order and because, with The First Avenger first, this would mean The Incredible Hulk then The Avengers which they find jarring because of the disconnect in actor and style and things. They'll move Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 back to its correct position because it's so clearly out of order, and then they might shuffle Black Panther back to straight after Civil War correctly, but are scared to move Doctor Strange to after Homecoming because again, too much of a deviation from the release order - too bold a claim, they feel. Plus because of Doctor Strange spanning a long time they seem to decide "Well since it's around the Civil War/Black Panther/Homecoming period, let's make sure it's just roughly in the middle there somewhere, between Black Panther and Homecoming is about right." I also see people shuffle Thor: Ragnarok to immediately before Avengers: Infinity War due to the credits scene, so incorrectly after Ant-Man and the Wasp.

The correct watch order is: (To be clear, I would never recommend this as the order for someone on their first watch-through of the MCU - for that, mostly stick to release order - only for rewatches. This is just the timeline-based chronological order.)
 * 0) Captain America: The First Avenger (1940s placement, if you so wish)
 * 1) Captain Marvel
 * 2) Iron Man
 * 3) Iron Man 2
 * 4) Thor
 * 5) The Incredible Hulk
 * 6) Captain America: The First Avenger
 * 7) Marvel's The Avengers
 * 8) Iron Man 3
 * 9) Thor: The Dark World
 * 10) Captain America: The Winter Soldier
 * 11) Guardians of the Galaxy
 * 12) Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
 * 13) Avengers: Age of Ultron
 * 14) Ant-Man
 * 15) Captain America: Civil War
 * 16) Black Panther
 * 17) Spider-Man: Homecoming
 * 18) Doctor Strange
 * 19) Thor: Ragnarok
 * 20) Ant-Man and the Wasp
 * 21) Avengers: Infinity War

There's two reasons I'm not too anxious about this. One, it's only a watch order, not a timeline. They specified chronological so we don't have the leeway of saying, "Well it's only a recommended watch order so maybe it's not all in timeline order, shuffled a bit instead to make more viewing sense," but we do have the fact that there is no universally agreed way to chronologically order - by when the beginning of the film takes place? The middle? The end? The beginning ignoring prologues? The end ignoring epilogues? The end including credits scenes? There's plenty of options. So while I believe that ordering by the middle of the film makes the most sense (I mean obviously I believe my way is the best way, but I'm not the most unbiased😂), there's some leniency for us to say "Well maybe this is just the order if you go by the point one quarter through the film" or something weird like that, so it's not wrong nor incompatible with the proper chronological order.

Two, I don't know how much this will catch on. I can't tell if this is going to get blown up across the Internet as "Russos confirm official chronological order" or it'll be largely ignored and nothing will change with these articles that try to guess the watch order and people getting it wrong. I mean, as this continues the Endgame hype is just building up so articles and MCU fans and whoever else are preoccupied.

The only thing I care about is the frustration and difficulty caused when incorrect timelines/watch orders catch on online and I have to see the repeated incorrect messages online that I can do nothing to stop despite knowing the facts, and the world starts to think a certain think that would suggest we are wrong, especially when we get it quoted at us with "confirmed by Marvel" or whatever. It gets very stressful and annoying, to say the least, and sucks the fun out of it all as it feels like it's becoming us against the world and the world won't listen.

Let's just hope this is as close as possible to correct and that it doesn't become a big deal.

Marvel's Avengers: Infinity War: The Cosmic Quest (Edward Zachary Sunrose)
Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: 1. I really, really hope Cosmic Quest is still canon after Endgame. It was where we first got the term Decimation from, so clearly the author had inside knowledge given to him by Marvel. Hopefully they didn't screw him over like they did to the author of Thanos Rising. I hope it is too, it really is presented as such with the film title and logo and everything involved with its promotion.

Endgame Affecting Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. (Edward Zachary Sunrose)
Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: 4. Dear God, everyone is so sure that Endgame is going to have some sort of time travel involved to undo Infinity War, and here I am praying to God that it keeps the Attack of Greenwich Village intact. If it doesn't, Agents of SHIELD is no longer canon, since that one battle is what jumpstarts Talbot's quest for Gravitonium (Season 5), gets the team sucked to the future (Season 4) and ends up with them leaving to find Fitz in space (Season 6). We'll see, I'm sure there'll be workarounds if there's a timeline change that affects the show since we can probably do some "OK technically it's a new timeline but it seems that very similar things happened to these guys as to what we saw in Seasons 1-5 so they're in the same place as they would be and they have the same character developments and things. Arrow did a similar thing when it was affected by The Flash changing the last 16 years of timeline, the characters were just in almost exactly the same positions as they were aside from a couple of things that were intentionally notably tweaked. Seasons 1-4 no longer happened as we had watched them, but they happened almost identically in this timeline so it doesn't really matter.

But Jeph Loeb at the WonderCon panel was hinting that he knows the outline of the ending of Endgame. When someone asked how Season 6 works with the Snap, he basically said "April 26th" (I think he accidentally actually said 28th) "watch Endgame, May 3rd go see it again, then on May 10th you'll be ready to see what happens to our agents after what happened with the Avengers in Endgame." I mean, he basically unintentionally hinted that the Snap won't be a problem.

Also, matching what we've been told, apparently (from people who saw the episode at WonderCon), Episode 1 starts right after Season 5 then specifically says "1 year later". Loeb also mentioned the episode saying "1 year later" at the WonderCon panel.

Thanos' Age (Edward Zachary Sunrose)
Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Anyways, don't know if this has already been posted, but Thanos was confirmed by Joe Russo to be 1,000 years old. Nice, completely missed that! That's the lower end of what we estimated last summer, which was "somewhere between 1000 and 50,000".