Thread:Shabook/@comment-26838855-20180601164515/@comment-26838855-20180613200339

Shabook wrote: First of all, as I told you before, sorry for the late response, here it goes. All OK, thank you for taking the time to respond thoroughly!

Sorry it's taken me a bit of time to get back to you. I'm very busy at the moment, until late June, and I wanted to take the time to respond properly myself.

Shabook wrote: The explanation is always and has always been the same. This wiki is an encyclopedia that aims to collect the information provided by Marvel Studios and Marvel Television regarding their "Marvel Cinematic Universe" brand. Nothing more. We as fans tend to try to fill the gaps they leave, but we cannot, at least not in this wiki. That has always been the purpose of this wiki and its main pillar. So, if Marvel doesn't bother in relating their multiple shows, we should not and we cannot.

And that worked until now, because the showrunners of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. were accurate enough to place the events of the movies in specific places of their episode order. But that started to fade away after Civil War, and now it's been confirmed that they wouldn't do crossovers anymore, so they don't bother in placing them. And we cannot do it for them, because we can only add to this wiki things that have been confirmed by Marvel without doubt.

Trying to follow the events order for the Infinity War jumping back and forth between the events of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. was, precisely, what was complicated. I'm still unable to understand why did it hurt so much to have a link to the following event in the movie that it had to be removed more than once (not saying it was by you, I didn't even checked who it was the one who kept removing it).

Because that's the only thing I added. The order of events was only brought up when the edit was "redone".

And that's precisely the reason. It's not so hard to two different itineraries, it is still correct, easy to follow for us diehard MCU fans and even easier for average moviegoer fans. There are only benefits in that and no harms. All fair enough. I'm happy with the diverging and reconverging events based purely on the factual order. Perfectly happy with the wiki's need for factual basis and removing fanon dates and making sure events orders are only the confirmed orders, that's all fine by me and I agree. As of a couple of weeks' time, I'm going to have a lot more time on my hands for a few months, and those will be some of the things that I can do some work on cleaning up. The only thing with the Sacrifice of Gamora or Rescue of Doctor Strange pages was the way the edits were being done wasn't making sense. But it's all sorted now.

Shabook wrote: No, it doesn't. It's exactly the same as when you read a newspaper, an article written on columns, or any relationship section in this wiki's articles. Columns doesn't mean at all that they have anything to do with what is written in the column next to it. I'm honestly unable to understand why it has. OK, well, this is the one place where I cannot quite agree still, sorry about that. I find it hard to express what I'm trying to say, but it's the horizontal lines above and below that I think give the impression of side-by-side to the readers (before the table, it was the gaps between sections). It's chunking them together as taking place in the same ballpark, like saying, "We don't know exactly how these two fit together, but we're drawing a line above and a line below for the segments to show that we know that they are least do fit together, and don't overlap with above or below."

It's different to columns in a newspaper, where it simply reads as either continuing into the next column or as separate pieces. Same with the columns in the relationship section, the order of the sections is not significant. However, with the Timeline page, the idea is that as you descend the page, time passes. There is essentially an invisible "time" y-axis, and so placement matters more.

Sorry, I'm not really sure exactly how to clearly explain what I'm trying to say, but I hope I'm making sense.

The current order of, for example: seems to tell the reader:
 * Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 2, Part 2 and Daredevil: Season 1 both take place after Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 2, Part 1.
 * We don't know exactly how Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 2, Part 2 and Daredevil: Season 1 interweave, but:
 * We know that there's no overlap with Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 2, Part 2 and Jessica Jones: Season 1.
 * We know that there's no overlap with Daredevil: Season 1 and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 3, Part 1.
 * So we can draw a line between them for the distinction.
 * The chunking thus shows for each stage that we don't know how they interweave, but we know there's no overlap above and below each line.

If it were, instead: It tells the reader that: I just think it's more factually accurate, causes fewer problems for interpretation, and is easier for the future.
 * We know Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 2 and Daredevil: Season 1 are both definitely after Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2.
 * We know the order of the film/Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. column.
 * We know the order of the Netflix column.
 * But we don't know the exact order of how they interweave.

I do also have a few just general amendments I would make to the page - not massive suggestions like before with "The overlap order of Daredevil: Season 2 and Luke Cage: Season 1 is x, y, z", more just small corrections. If you ever want to know, I'm more than happy to give some suggestions, but no rush (I mean, I can't even do it for at least 2 more weeks because I'm so busy currently, I definitely don't want to rush it), if you do ever want a discussion about it.

Shabook wrote: I'm just a regular guy who, after his job, sits at home and uses a part of his free time in managing this wiki. And I cannot keep the pace that the combination of a behemoth Holywood Studio and a Television producing company keep for their products. And sometimes things cannot be decided or sorted out until they happen, even if that means changing what has been done until then. Admins have that role, of managing a wiki and sometimes having to decide how it is done best.

Even then, if we decide to publish an editorial for a new reality, there is no point for it, because most people don't even care. Latest one that was published, for the spree of changing all characters' status to "unknown", only served for a guy to harass and insult me in two other wikis. I can send you the link if you're curious. You do a great job, and I should not assume that if something has been left a certain way, it means it's the correct way of doing things - sometimes, things will understandably slip through the cracks. The MCU keeps cranking out content and no one can keep up with it all (the timeline alone I'm struggling to keep up with especially with heavy commitments I have in my personal life, so managing the whole wiki... well, I take my hat off to you).

That's a shame you were harassed over that announcement, I can't imagine why people would have complaints about it. Those characters, as things stand, are dead. It's ridiculous to become angry at you.

Shabook wrote: That's not true, it's simply that I stopped being interested in contributing to them, the same way I'm not interested in adding images to galleries or many other kind of articles. But as an admin, it is the duty I assumed to keep an eye and manage all of them. All makes sense. I should be more careful about putting words into your mouth and not say, "I know you think x, y, z," because I shouldn't presume.

Shabook wrote: And that's one of the reasons I will propose you, among very few others, as a new content moderator next time we open that kind of discussion. Wow, that's very kind. Thank you so much! Just out of curiosity, what would that involve?

Shabook wrote: The only thing that annoyed me of the whole situation is the practice of redoing edits that had been corrected before, and having to waste time in doing things over and over again. And I was annoyed at the practice itself, not the person/people who did it. There are some practices in this wiki that annoy me, just like anybody else, but that doesn't mean I havve to be annoyed per se to the people who do them.

But overall, what probably happens, is that I'm tired, extremely tired, of getting into arguments, discussions, accusations, and sometimes, being scolded and insulted just for managing this wiki; and seeing zero empathy, because people can still talk trash and threaten admins, but are scolded whenever they say anything.

I see other wikis where admins just say "because I'm an admin, do as I say or be gone". The DC wiki even has an image of Batman saying "Do as you're told" to describe their admins. Is that the way we do have to follow? I certainly don't think so, but there are some instances where I think it would be all less complicated. It's understandable to get tired of it. Maybe it's me, and I take things a little personally when I shouldn't, but I hope I was not too critical in response. The zero-empathy responses are a shame, and I do see some people being unnecessarily rude. I hope I show some more understanding and fair discourse with my discussions.

Glad things are clear, thanks again.

Oh, and a quick final thing, any ideas for the name of the collective original Earth-destroyed timeline page?