Thread:Elledy92/@comment-26838855-20190425183005/@comment-26838855-20190726185849

The Wikia Editor wrote: I might be misremembering, but I believe that it was explained that the quantum navigators within their suits allow them to navigate through the Quantum Realm's time vortices in order to arrive at their exact locations and times.

Presumably, following the same coordinates allowed Cap to return to those timelines in order to put the stones back, which also erased those timelines once he left. That's the way the film plays it, but not what the Russos say.

DaenerysTheMadKhal58 wrote: Then he'd appear at the exact same place and time that the others did previously? Which would be different than what happened, thus creating another branch timeline, unless he was always there hiding and no one saw him?

And if the timelines were erased, how is the Loki show going to be following up on the 2012 Loki scene? I have some theories about how Steve returned them but it's not really worth the discussion, it's all a bit messy. But yeah, the returning of the stones doesn't make sense by the Russo explanation. The Markus and McFeely explanation has tiny holes, the Russo explanation has more and bigger holes. In my opinion, at least.

And yeah, the Loki thing further messes it all up. I could go down a rabbit hole of how that all fits together but I'm completely burned out on this discussion. I'm compiling it in a blog, and find that this discussion goes nowhere.

The Wikia Editor wrote: Well, he doesn't have to arrive at exactly the same and time place, just in the same timeline. He could have arrived shortly after the others had left and then returned the Time Stone to the Ancient One.

As for 2012 Loki, I've no idea. The series will at least partially take place in the 1970s and will also be set after Endgame. It's also been stated that "part of the mystery is where he's been and what he's been up to", which suggests that he might have been running around the main MCU for awhile.

If I have to speculate, then I guess it's possible that 2012 Loki's possession of the Space Stone at the time that his timeline got erased allowed him to somehow continue to exist within the main universe, which suggests that he might have been around and in hiding since 2012. Nah they do say he has to go to the exact moment they "were taken", be that the moment of arrival (essentially a volatile, vulnerable point in the timeline), the moment they were shifted, or the moment when they left each timeline with each stone.

There's some workarounds to try and make it compatible with the idea that somehow those timelines continued to exist despite Bruce saying they would erase them, another option is that between that point and the point where Bruce and Scott return to 2023 Loki managed to somehow get out of that splinter (like back to 1975) like Gamora, thus existing despite the splinter being erased.

Elledy92 wrote: Simply, timelines can't be erased. They are just put back on track on a similar course of the original timeline, and moves on their own from that point. Just like you can't change your own past, by the same rule it's not physically possible to cancel an entire reality simply by putting a Stone back. This is probably one of the weakest aspect of the Russo explanation and one of the thing that makes me regrets that they connected time travel rules with the Stones in the first place. Honestly, I've never really got your assertion that timelines can't be erased, Elledy92. That's word for word what they say and show in the film, and the Infinity Stones have control over all of space-time beyond any real physics, it's certainly in their capability. Thanos nearly destroys the entire universe and starts a new one with them. There are workarounds for it being branch timelines on branch timelines that get erased, but no matter what some timelines got erased in this film.

Elledy92 wrote: Technically, traveling in the timeline will simply alter the course of the timeline itself, preventing to fall into caos without a Stone. Except if every jump creates a branch, he would be creating branches off of those branches which are nicer, but doing nothing about the other split from that split, still Infinity Stone-less and chaotic.

The Wikia Editor wrote: To be fair, the stones are explicitly stated by the Ancient One to create the flow of time, and the removal of any of them causes that flow to split off into a branch timeline, which will then continue to exist independantly of the main timeline.

When Captain America is about to leave to return them, Bruce specifically states that the stones must be returned to the exact moment that they were taken, as it would otherwise result in Steve opening up "a bunch of nasty alternative realities".

It's not really specified whether "the exact moment" refers to the stones being physically taken from where they were before (i.e. the Ancient One giving the Time Stone to Bruce) or to the moment that the Time Heist team left.

If the latter, then Steve simply needs to arrive at the exact same time that they left and then return the stones. This, apparently, erases the timeline completely, effectively making none of it happen. It's just my interpretation though, so I could easily be wrong about all of that. Cap also says he'll "clip all the branches".

I am in agreement about the returning and erasing of the stones. That's the way the film presents it, as is evident by the fact that it's what the writers have confirmed was the way they wrote it to be. But it looks like it won't be the "official" Marvel way they take things for the future.

The Wikia Editor wrote: Since the splinter timeline began to exist independantly once one of the stones was removed from it, it's hypothetically possible for Steve to arrive in 2014 of the 2012 timeline. It's the reason why Bruce instructed him to return to the exact moment that the stones left their respective timelines, as it would otherwise result in the creation of more branches.

As for how branch timelines are created, the rules in the comics are that, if the time traveler doesn't make any significant changes to the past (such as stopping oneself from traveling back in time in the first place), then it simply remains a single timeline, as nothing of note was changed.

However, if something significant IS changed, then it results in an alternate timeline, which will continue to exist independantly of the original timeline.

A time traveler showing up does not necessarily, in an of itself, change the timeline. He could arrive in the 2014 of the 2012 timeline, but that would leave that timeline missing a defence for 2 years and mean that that timeline now has a period without all six Infinity Stones, allowing it to form as a splinter and meaning it can't be erased. Bruce needs him to return to the exact moment so, as explained in the Ancient One scene, there is never a moment that the timeline is lacking a complete set of Infinity Stones to hold the flow of time together in one line.

I wouldn't really look at the comics time travel for this, though what you say about significant canges seems to align with Joe Russo's strange, muddled extra comments about only things like Loki taking the Tesseract would create an alternate timeline. But no, that's not really part of the debate. I acknowledge it in my blog anyway and go through what Joe seems to be trying to say.

Anyway we know from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. that a time traveller showing up doesn't always itself create a new timeline. The question is whether, for some reason, when you're time travelling through the Quantum Realm, then showing up always creates a new timeline.

The Wikia Editor wrote: The problem with that interpretation is that it doesn't match up with the visual presentation given by the Ancient One.

She shows the flow of time and then removes one of the stones to create a branch timeline. Bruce then puts the stone back and erases that timeline.

The impression I got from that scene (which is kinda supported by what Markus & McFeely said on the Empire Podcast) is that the return of the stones at the exact moments that they were taken erases those timelines. Basically, I got the impression that, when Steve returned any of the stones and then left, the timeline he left ceased to exist. We're on the same wavelength.

DaenerysTheMadKhal58 wrote: That's not how it works in the movie though. If I recall correctly, according to the Russos, every time you travel to the past, a new timeline branch is created. While according to Markus & McFeely, time is only changed if you mess with one of the infinity stones, otherwise it's the predestination paradox. Indeed.

The Wikia Editor wrote: I think I lean more towards Markus & McFeely's explanation, as it works better with the conversation between the Ancient One and Bruce as well as with how the movie resolves the timelines.

If a new branch timeline is created every time someone travels into the past, then returning the stones wouldn't actually result in those timelines disappearing, it would just create two seperate branch timelines, one where a stone was returned and another where it remained absent.

Again, Bruce specifically instructs Steve to return the stones to the exact moments that they were taken in order to prevent any more branch timelines from forming.

The entire premise of Captain America returning the stones rests on the idea that time travel, in an of itself, does not create branch timelines. Exactly, to pretty much all of this (and there's other reasons Markus and McFeely works better). The Markus and McFeely explanation definitely fits better with what the film says - naturally, because what the film says is what they wrote - but it looks like the Russos are more clued in to Marvel's further plans and Marvel are willing to exploit the grey areas for creative purposes.

Elledy92 wrote: The "timeline erased" explanation doesn't work either way, because in order for the Time Heist to happen in the fabric of existence, the timeline must still exists in order for the event to took place. If the 2012/1970/2014 timeline ceased to exist after returning the Stone back, than it can't exist for the Avengers to travel through in the first place (since there is no "before" and "after" in a time travel scenario). It's a paradox, and contradict what Banner's says about time travel physics. That's way connecting the idea of time travel to the Stones was a bad idea from the start (since it clearly not the case, as time can be just altered simply by a traveler with any other action, as Banner mentioned when explaining the "kill Baby Thanos" scenario). The thing about the problem of erasing is a very good point. Neither explanation can answer every question. However, the fact that they're creating split timelines means that this isn't entirely playing by four-dimensional "it all just is" rules. They can go back and create an alternate timeline, so they can also go back and close them off would be my, admittedly not wholly satisfying, answer. But I'm not saying "Going with Markus and McFeely solves everything!"

Banner didn't say time can be altered by a traveller with any action, he only says that when you're changing the past it won't affect your past "future".

My brain is so tired from these last 3 months.