Thread:Marvelus/@comment-26838855-20190116120806/@comment-26838855-20190505004054

Cloak & Dagger/Framework (Mrmichaelt, Edward Zachary Sunrose)
Mrmichaelt wrote: Hmm, so timeline discussion, looks like episode 5 bleeds into episode 6 taking place on the same day/night.

I think they were just illusions/scenarios in Tandy's mind as Andre tried to extract her hope like he implicitly did to the girls she and Tyrone freed. Nothing to do with timelines or alternate realities, imo.

Totally thinking Andre and Lia are the MCU version of Day and Night. Day and Night's first names were Anthony and Lea in the comics and they were agents of Mister Jip who Pokaski already teased to be coming up along with classic villains. I suspect Lia has an ability and was near the rig, too, that night like Andre. Figures Tandy and Tyrone weren't the only ones. Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: Well, if they are real timelines, then it seems like they all split from the Oil Rig Explosion (while the final one splits from Tandy's capture), so they could be split off from the MCU timeline we know. I'll let you guys know my thoughts once I've seen the episode. I want to wait until I've finished my Season 1 work before I watch Episode 6 so I'm not still jumping back and forth in the show.

Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: As for the Framework, while it is presented in the show to us as a highly sophisticated virtual reality, it was created using magic (the source code that programs all reality) and Mo and Jed said in interviews that it is an actual alternate reality. So I do count it. However, the divergence point is unknown, since who knows how many generations had to be messed with for Jeffrey Mace to be born an Inhuman. Huh, really? Interesting...

Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: I hope this show doesn't devolve into Smallville territory or Heroes. "Hey, you know this very rare and special circumstance that gave you your powers and you thought you were the only one for years? Turns out there were dozens of people affected and they're only now popping up on your radar!" Mrmichaelt wrote: Agreed. But around the season 1 finale, Pokaski did promise some classic villains showing up and from what I remember, C&D didn't have a deep rogues gallery or really one for that matter. But yeah, they could do a misstep and go nuts with other people getting powers on the night of the rig incident or more people like Brigid and Mayhem. I'm fine with it so long as it's not extensive and pushing our suspension of disbelief. It makes sense for others to have got powers, just I guess sure, it's a bit weird that it took them 8 years to show up properly.

Markus and McFeely (Mrmichaelt, DaenerysTheMadKhal58, me, Marvelus)
Mrmichaelt wrote: Markus and McFeely seem to say Steve goes back to "about 1948" to have a life with Peggy. DaenerysTheMadKhal58 wrote: Fandango: So people are asking... Does this mean an old Captain America was hanging out this whole time while another Captain America was saving the day?

Christopher Markus: That is our theory. We are not experts on time travel, but the Ancient One specifically states that when you take an Infinity Stone out of a timeline it creates a new timeline. So Steve going back and just being there would not create a new timeline. So I reject the "Steve is in an alternate reality" theory.

I do believe that there is simply a period in world history from about '48 to now where there are two Steve Rogers. And anyway, for a large chunk of that one of them is frozen in ice. So it's not like they'd be running into each other.

Source

Oprah voice: So what is the truth? BEJT wrote: Pahahaha woooowwwww. Marvelus wrote: So it is not an alternate timeline after all? .-. BEJT wrote: This is amazing. Seriously. One of the biggest films of all time, and they couldn't coordinate the rules of the premise between writers and directors. Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: So, the Russos say it's an alternate timeline. M&M say it's not, and that it's 1948 (which would fit into the current MCU timeline).

Since two very official sources are now contradicting themselves, I guess it's up to our discretion. I'll accept M&M's confirmation that it's '48, but I'm also agreeing with the Russos that it's an alternate timeline. But that's just me, personally. BEJT wrote: I'm just going to await further clarification at this point, but I hope this blows up as big as the Russo explanation so there's a fair equal understanding online rather than that thing that happens where the first news story blows up and then people don't care about the follow-up stories and just stick to the first one.

I'm sure 1948 is intentional considering Markus and McFeely's involvement in Agent Carter. DaenerysTheMadKhal58 wrote: Props to Markus for saying 1948, which doesn't interfere with Agent Carter. Markus and McFeely seem pretty knowledgeable about the timeline, they got everything right, I think.

Since they're the ones who actually wrote the movie, I'd say they're the ones who are right. I guess the Russos just did not really understand how it works and didn't ask M&M about it. BEJT wrote: I would be inclined to agree that they are more likely the official source - though I didn't want to seem biased because it's my original theory. Also since the Russos were more confident in what they said than these two appear to be.

It'll be annoying if, if they are taken as the better source, we get another case where a certain article blew up, the world thinks it's one way, we know better, and then get years of "But x said this..."

Anyway I'm just going to leave it for now.

And yeah they were producers on Agent Carter, which I'm sure is why Jarvis shows up (and Joe Russo directed an episode as well), so they're aware. But I'm glad they remembered anyway. As unfortunately expected, this explanation isn't getting coverage because once one thing's been reported, no one ever seems to care for new info that might change things. It's so frustrating.

Mrmichaelt wrote: That what I'm thinking, too. Marvelus wrote: I prefer M&M's answer. As it makes sense due to what the movie itself establishes. Right? BEJT wrote: It does. It's what I'd concluded from breaking down the film's quotes. Elledy92 wrote: I thing that M&M's idea of time travel doesn't really make sense and it does contradict itself in few places. I think the Russo's establishment of how time travel works is the best one because it avoids time loops, paradoxes or any kind of incosistency in what we saw. Obviously we've discussed it at length on the thread specifically about this, but the Markus and McFeely version works perfectly other than just the question of "How come, if the Infinity Stones are the only thing that causes a split, then in those Time Heist spots where the splits would occur (so not 1948 or 2018), events seem to diverge before the stones have actually been removed? But I do have two possible explanations for that as explained on the other thread.

As for the Russo version, it has a different problem - how did Steve get back to the main timeline? It's also got an explanation - just we don't know it. And the Russo version is less what the dialogue in the film tells us than the Markus and McFeely version.

The Wikia Editor wrote: I think it works out mostly fine. The general rule of time travel in the Marvel Comics is that alternate timelines only come about if you change something while in the past. As long as Steve doesn't prevent his past self from traveling back in time in 2023, the timeline remains intact and doesn't splinter. Reposting what I said on the other thread about why I'm just going to wait at this point for further clarification: BEJT wrote: Writers should usually take precedent due to them constructing the way the film works and is told. Only reason they shouldn't necessarily take precedent here is they come across as slightly less confident, bringing them to an equal playing field. BEJT wrote: Pros and cons list (not including personal favourite things like the Russos for Sousa or Markus and McFeely for it being more poetic):
 * Russos' explanation
 * Pros
 * It works, aside from missing extra information.
 * The Russos have acknowledged that the information is needed, so it's not wrong.
 * The Russos seem more confident.
 * Cons
 * It's not the way the film is written.
 * It requires extra information we don't have.
 * They're only the directors not writers.
 * Markus and McFeely's explanation
 * Pros
 * It works aside from one fudge-y explanation over why the splits only occurring in the Infinity Stone-removing travels seem to begin before the Stones have actually been removed.
 * It's the way the film is written.
 * They're the writers who constructed the story.
 * Bonus: They took the care to say 1948.
 * Cons
 * They are less assertive/confident in their comment.
 * There is a slight (explainable) fudge involved.

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. (David Kaique, Marvelus, CirUmeUela)
David Kaique wrote: According to Loeb, SHIELD Season 6 takes place before the snap.

"The only way for us to tell our story is to do them pre-snap"

https://mcuexchange.com/agents-of-shield-season-6-avengers-endgame/ "Whether or not you can figure out [how the timeline works], we'll let 'timelords' figure out."

I stick up for Loeb a lot. He's done a lot of good stuff and seems like a nice man, and this is probably not his fault, but this one part annoys me.

The exact WonderCon panel quote.

"Will this season take place shortly or... before the Decimation from Infinity War, and how does that affect the rest of the team?"

"Uh, it's a really good question, and, and I'll field that one. Um, you'll probably be, on April [26th], in a theater, finding out how the Infinity War concludes in Endgame, and then on the 5th - the 3rd of May, which is a week later, um, you'll probably go back and see it again, and, and - and tell everybody that it's the coolest movie you've ever seen in your whole life. So that by the time you get to May the 10th, you're not gonna have anything else to do than sit home and watch Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. knowing how the Avengers' story ended in Endgame... so that should tell you... particularly when you saw today that it said "1 year later" that you would've figured that part out but it's OK."

They know, and of course they know, that this has to be a year after Infinity War. He says it there, he's basically saying, "When you saw today that it said "1 year later" after the end of Season 5 which is of course simultaneous with Infinity War." So this idea of, "Well look I'm still going to say it's pre-Snap and who knows if that works, maybe people who do this sort of thing can work it out!" Nah, come on.

I would much rather that they just had the same response of explaining why it didn't work logistically, and then just say, "We're just going to have to assume that the agents all survived and are a bit busy with new problems to discuss the Snap." Obviously it's very coincidental but at least it would be an official explanation that actually makes sense.

I guessed he might say pre-Snap for Jessica Jones: Season 3 because of the fact that people, and possibly producers as well, aren't particularly clear on where Netflix falls in relation to the films, so you can get away with that in most crowds. But this as well, when they clearly know and, while many fans seem to have forgotten the Infinity War connection in Season 5, most fans are aware? Come on.

This is what I've meant for the last year where I've been talking about how Loeb's comments don't necessarily have to be taken at 100% strict face value, because it's not so much a comment of "In relation to the MCU timeline, this falls at an earlier date" as "Yeah we don't address it, let's say that's because it's set before". In relation to The Punisher: Season 2, that's not me saying "So we can throw out that comment as well" because it's a) a separate comment that has held true for everything else and b) likely the case anyway that May 2018 is pre-Snap. But I'm just saying that this is what I meant for the last year and this kind of proves it, this isn't so much a statement about the strict timeline dates but just an excuse for evading the Snap.

Marvelus wrote: WHAT?! CirUmeUela wrote: That's just dumb. It's like they aren't even trying to be the same universe anymore CirUmeUela, while you're here, I did the Ant-Man and the Wasp flashback dates finally. Check November 1995.

Marvelus wrote: Well. To be fair. Marvel Studios is making not favours to Marvel TV either Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: I recognize that Marvel Television has made a decision, but given that it's a stupid-ass decision, I've elected to ignore it. Marvelus wrote: 😂😂 BEJT wrote: Wasn't it obvious? Avengers: Infinity War takes place over a year from the Attack on Greenwich Village to the Snap. Was obvious to me, not sure how the world didn't realise that...

BEJT wrote: They're official canon, forever. Just we might end up with Jeph Loeb making a lot of excuses on the feebleness-level of his Avengers Tower excuse. Not his fault, not picking on him, just the unfortunate reality he might be stuck in. Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: I mean... You definitely hit that nail on the head. Thank you. I wish I hadn't.

I also wasn't quite thinking this silly.

Marvelus wrote: I thibk they should have chosen not to tie in with Infinity War as originally planned.

So. You are not mad BEJT? I knew they'd ignore it, so that was expected, so I'm not annoyed. I just accepted it when the film finished. It's just the worst possible in-universe excuse they could've given. Hope they try again with a better one.

As for tying in, it worked better for the story in terms of motivating Talbot and they also didn't have to worry because they were sure they were going to get cancelled. But those two things going right (getting to add that element to Talbot's story and getting renewed) has now had a bad knock-on effect.

CirUmeUela wrote: The only thing that could make sense at this point is that we just assume the Agents of SHIELD went to an alternate timeline when they went back, one where Thanos failed? But that makes no sense because Doctor Strange said there was only one scenario where they won. But maybe there was another scenario they won in?

Or maybe they jump back in time a year for no reason, but no, that's not gonna happen. We already know it's a year later after season 5.

Or maybe they won't show the public that much this season so we can assume that maybe the Snap did happen, but that no one will mention it at all and that all the main characters did not get snapped? This is just frustrating. I understand the secrecy and the disconnect between Marvel Studios and Marvel Television, but there's no way they could have told them anything about the snap?

I just lost hope that Agents of SHIELD, Netflix characters, Cloak and Dagger, etc would somehow be involved in the Disney + stuff in the future. Not that I had much hope in the first place. Anyways, rant over. The White Monolith is established as not working like that, so it's not an alternate timeline (which would also have more effects on the show for the future).

Coulson (because he died after weeks, not seconds, going by the first trailer), May, Daisy, Fitz, Simmons, Mack, Yo-Yo, Deke Piper, and Davis - and possibly Enoch if he were susceptible to the snap, which I think he was, while he's basically a robot he's still like a proper alien species with thought and I believe he counts as "alive" - all survived the Snap. A 1 in 1024 or, more likely, 1 in 2048 chance. But I guess so.

And it's been a year. While I can't see people, even after a year, completely ignoring such a world-changing event, at least it's not just a few months later. A year later allows for the tiniest chance of them just not referencing it, and apparently with the 13-episode run the show's pace is faster so at least that helps slightly with this idea of "They're too busy to be talking about it".

Marvelus wrote: Man. I think we are all overreacting. We have to wait and see. They are in the same universe and we all knew we were going to face problems CirUmeUela wrote: Yeah, maybe. We'll just have to see. Either way I'll try to enjoy this season for what it is. The Wikia Editor wrote: Best case scenario would be that no directly contradicting evidence appears in AoS Season 6 to suggest we're pre-snap, allowing us to just place it in 2019. Yeah. It just has to be 2019. It's annoying, but expected.

And yeah, Jessica Jones: Season 3 is also definitely going to ignore the Snap, we can be sure of that now if there were ever a question that it might.