User blog:Rman41/The MCU vs. The SUMC: The Facts, Fiction and Everything Else

Background
On March 10, 2016, an announcement absolutely shattered the internet. In the then-upcoming film, Captain America: Civil War, the feud over Marvel’s cinematic character rights with its most popular hero, Spider-Man, had come to an end. After the disappointment felt by many Marvel fans in regards to The Amazing Spider-Man series starring Andrew Garfield, fans were ready for a new iteration of the character by the people that actually knew what they were doing. And so, with this multi-picture deal, Tom Holland’s Peter Parker would go on to later appear in his own films, Spider-Man: Homecoming and Spider-Man: Far From Home, as well as Avengers: Infinity War and Avengers: Endgame.

The specifics of the deal seem largely speculative and seem to be decided on the spot by Marvel and Sony as they face new challenges. In the 2018 movie Venom, a Sony Pictures project separate from the Marvel Cinematic Universe, it has been reported that Tom Holland shot a cameo as his iteration of Spider-Man. The cameo did not appear in the final film however, as Disney-Marvel did not want the general public to believe that Venom took place within their universe. Sony complied, although they were seemingly always adamant about their characters existing within the MCU to some extent.

Sony’s temper in regard to the Spider-Man MCU situation seemed to grow rapidly as time went on, with their production studio becoming unwilling to comply with the restrictions given by Marvel Studios. They began to view the Spider-Man deal as a limitation more than an opportunity. Still, the box office success of Spider-Man: Far From Home, 1.132 billion USD, meant that Sony could still find success in the character’s personal outings. What Sony seemingly did not realize at the time was that Far From Home’s success was largely due to it being a sequel to Avengers: Endgame, the best selling movie at the box office. Perhaps they did actually realize this, and simply wanted to leech off of its success to jumpstart their own Sony Universe of Marvel Characters.

Whatever the reason, on August 20, 2019, it was reported by multiple outlets that Spider-Man had left the MCU over conflicts between Sony and Marvel. Originally thought to be over a producer credit, an early renegotiation of profit margins by Disney eventually appeared as the true catalyst. Spider-Man had been abruptly removed from the MCU, and right after his film had revealed the introduction of S.W.O.R.D. and the potential for more Skrull-related storylines within the MCU. A movie meant to set up Marvel Studios' Phase 4 would seemingly have no place in that phase’s future.

The reactions were harsh online, with most blaming Sony as the primary cause of the division. As we don’t have a truly clear picture as to the behind-the-scenes going-ons, the most objective position would likely have not been to throw blame, but to simply petition as honest fans. That method seems to have paid off in the end, as a new sharing agreement between Marvel and Sony was later reached. Announced on September 27, 2019, the new sharing arrangement would allow Marvel Studios to produce the third Spider-Man: Homecoming series film, as well as use the character in a later movie.

An oddity seemed to arise in the new deal however. Spider-Man’s shared characters were now also able to exist within Sony’s cinematic universe as well as the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Kevin Feige, President of Marvel Studios, seemed to imply that the universes would remain separate with Spider-Man being the only shared property.

“He also happens to be the only hero with the superpower to cross cinematic universes, so as Sony continues to develop their own Spidey-verse you never know what surprises the future might hold.” -Kevin Feige

Although this quote does seem to imply that the universes are separate, the amount of logical problems created makes such an idea very strange in context, but possibly feasible assuming that neither universe referenced each other, creating essentially two different versions of Tom Holland’s Peter Parker. This was the ongoing assumption, until Sony Pictures completely shattered the possibility of this.

The Morbius Dilemma
On January 13, 2020, Sony released a teaser trailer for their upcoming film, Morbius, set to be part of their SUMC; or is it? To throw a wrench into this idea of separate versions of characters to create distinction between the universes, Sony seemed adamant on continuing with their plan to bring their characters into the MCU, even if they could only do so in a limited sense.

The Morbius trailer features two direct references to the MCU, something which should be absolutely impossible if they are set within two different universes. An odd picture of Tobey Maguire’s Spider-Man with graffiti of the word “Murderer” over it seemed to be an attempt to reference the ending of Spider-Man: Far From Home. The reason for the use of Tobey Maguire’s suit is unknown, although theories have circulated that it is due to design credits to Marvel Studios, or simply a mistake on part of a Sony graphics artist. Later on in the trailer though, we see a far more direct reference. Michael Keaton’s Adrian Toomes from Spider-Man: Homecoming returns… in a completely different universe? Something was happening behind-the-scenes with Marvel and Sony for sure. Not only could characters exist in both universes, but events could also be shared between universes. It doesn’t take long to see how this is a complete defiance of natural logic, so a new question must be proposed for this in-universe dilemma: What is going on?

Truthfully, there are many possible answers, and there are only possible answers. Still, we can run through a few possibilities and weigh the evidence.

1. Spider-Man’s movies are the only movies which exist within both universes.
At first, this idea may seem like the most plausible, but further investigation and logic makes this very unlikely. Firstly, this would mean that characters like Tony Stark, Nick Fury, Maria Hill, the Skrulls, and many others would also exist within the SUMC, but without their corresponding events from the MCU. The entire plot of Far From Home is a sequel to Avengers: Endgame, so this idea would have to explain how events like the blip could differ between universes. Still, there’s nothing to say it would be outright impossible.

My rating: Very unlikely

2. The SUMC is referencing a completely different set of events relevant to its own universe.
This theory is more plausible than the first, but has many of its own problems. For one, the marketing and timing, as well as the inclusion of Vulture in the same outfit he wore in Homecoming makes this an obvious attempt by Sony to work around Marvel if true. This would be odd, as insiders currently say that the relationship between Sony and Marvel is much stronger than it was before the renegotiation. Sony seems to realize now that they would have a very hard time trying to take Spider-Man out of the MCU again, and fans insist that this should not happen. This would mean that the two Peters are separate characters, the originally proposed idea which is more logically consistent, although his background of events would still need to be explained, and the obvious MCU references would make this unlikely still.

My rating: Unlikely

3. The SUMC is now simply a part of the MCU.
This idea actually has the most ground in-universe to point to (tied with 4), although comments by Kevin Feige still give pause to such an idea. This would easily explain why Vulture appears in Morbius, he’s the same character from Homecoming in the same universe. This also creates a connection between J. Jonah Jameson, and his son, John Jonah Jameson who appeared in Venom. These characters are related in the comics as father and son, and this situation would unite them in-universe and hold relevance to JJJ’s role as an online conspiracy theorist. He would’ve told everyone that his son was killed by aliens, but not a single person would listen to him due to the Life Foundation’s cover-up. Of course, the reference to Far From Home is then a simple response to Spider-Man being framed as the murderer of Mysterio. This theory is not without its canonical issues, however. In Venom, a scene implies that Eddie had never seen or heard of alien life before. This contradicts many times in the MCU where aliens showed up as early as 2012. This is only really a problem if we assume Venom would take place after the events of The Avengers, but of course the best assumption is usually that a film takes place the year it was released, as is typical within the MCU. This would have no reasonable explanation, especially considering Eddie’s role as a journalist. Venom would either have to exist before the Chitauri invasion, or that specific scene would have to be considered non-canon. Of course, Feige’s comments haven’t agreed with this approach in the past either, although the one quote which directly contradicts this as a possibility is also clearly a figurative statement (Spider-Man cannot literally jump between universes, that’s absurd logically). Marvel has apparently also invested an unknown sum of money into the production of the SUMC films. For this reason, this possibility has about a 50/50 chance of eventually being true, but it is a difficult line to cross.

My rating: 50/50 chance

4. The SUMC sets itself within the MCU, but the MCU does not reference it or treat it as canon. (Non-canon MCU content)
This theory is mostly a repeat of that seen in 3, although it avoids the problem of Feige’s quotes by simply being non-canon material. This theory is certainly the most likely, without a question. It avoids the most problems while generally fitting together the plot points. From this point, assuming this theory is true, it would be up to Marvel to retcon these events in the future if they ever fully obtain Spider-Man’s film rights. This theory is also dynamic, as such an action by Marvel as I described would morph 4 into 3. This theory by far holds the most ground in-universe, as it completely explains the references to Far From Home and Homecoming, and it also fits Amy Pascal’s comments on potential Sinister Six crossover potential. The Venom alien scene still definitely poses a logical problem here, but by being a non-canon production, it would be far less egregious to the audience.

My rating: Likely

In Regards to the Wiki: Author’s note
Looking through the history on the Michael Keaton trivia page shows I was very committed in originally making the change to say that Keaton’s role as Toomes in Morbius was only “potentially alternate” whereas the administration of this wiki seems to prefer the theory 2 approach. As all we really have now are vague theories, very little discrete confirmation of anything, I believed, and still do believe that the most objective stance did not lay in any of these theories, but instead in the realm of possibility. As the wiki did not agree with my approach, it was quickly reverted; twice. Shabook and I had a fairly long argument on another user’s message wall, and I found his response rude, but I don’t hold it against him even if it was. He seems like a fair admin. I can tell he gets a lot of genuine trolls that don’t care about compliance on this wiki and believe they are above the people that have been here from the beginning.

To anyone reading this: You are not above admins, and if you truly care about the subject you are arguing for, it’s actually in your best interest to just let it go in the moment. Think about it this way: If you actually turn out to be right at a later point in time, that change you wanted to be made will be made in the end. You will win in the end if you are right. It’s not worth the argument.