Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-26838855-20190803131136/@comment-26838855-20200110011426

Runaways Canon, Time Travel, Magic, Etc. (CirUmeUela, Mrmichaelt, Edward Zachary Sunrose, ProBot1227)
CirUmeUela wrote: Hey everyone it's been a while since I posted here. I just gotta say, I finished Runaways Season 3, and I just don't see how this is gonna stay MCU canon and I unfortunaltey feel that most or all of the TV stuff is gonna be declared non-canon in the coming years. I just can't see how the timetraveling in this season can mesh with the MCU, for both Endgame's time travel and also Agents of SHIELD. I mean, we have Tony Stark explicitly saying that Back to the Future is BS and that's not how quantum physics works, yet we have this exact form of time travel in Runaways. You could maybe say that it's a different mechanism of time travel but that just honestly makes zero sense to me.

We also have a lot of magic stuff going on, Morgan La Fey trying to take over California, and Doctor Strange takes no notice? Neither does Wong or any sorcerer? Maybe you could argue this happened post snap so many sourcerers were gone, but I just don't know. However, Nico after being gone for three years in the last episode says she was training somewhere. That would seem to maybe imply she went to train somewhere like Kathmandu like Strange did. But also, why did Tina never mention sorcerers like Strange or Wong? Surely they would know of each other somehow. It seems very unlikely that they wouldn't.

Anyways, I don't see how it's all gonna fit with the MCU going forward. At this point it might be easier to say that a lot of the TV stuff is in a parallel universe or something. I hate to say it but it feels like it's going that way. I don't want to talk about the TV canon thing. I don't want to say what I do think and don't think and tempt fate or anything, I just don't really want to even acknowledge that possibility anymore. I have thoughts, but I'm trying not to think about those thoughts, the positive and the negative ones.

I'm mostly OK with the time travel in regards to how it fits with the wider MCU. Different devices just do different things, whatever. I just knew from the moment that they said there would be time travel that it would be like this, because this show just does its own thing and isn't a show that tries to be particularly clever or scientific. When Tony and Bruce talk, they're saying you can't rewrite the timeline because it doesn't make sense, and that's because... it doesn't make sense. Neither scientifically nor logically.

That's the problem I have with the time travel, that the rules just don't logically make sense, as "rewriting time" and "erasing versions of yourself" never do. I'm still mapping out a flowchart of my sprawling thoughts about it to try to find the best possible explanation to have it at least have some logic behind it.

But I reconcile it as being a tiny bit different to Back to the Future rules. I mean, the show is very much going by those rules, but if you try to make it actually make sense then you automatically are not just going by what Tony and Bruce say isn't the case, which was the idea of "You can go back in time and change things, but be careful because there's a butterfly effect and if you change things too much you'll erase yourself from existence!", which is nonsense. You start getting into things more like "When you jump in time with Alex and Chase's machine, you create/overlay a new version of the timeline on top of the previous one, and if you are in one where you are not also due to travel in time at the exact same point you travelled from to get here, you'll start to be erased and it takes about 15 minutes, but only if..." etc., I'm still working out the specifics as mentioned. Don't read too much into what I just said because there's some problems (as I'm trying to work all out), but that's the start of the kind of thing we're looking at. And actually, through that lens, it's starting to not quite be what Tony and Bruce describe, and it's not too dissimilar from Endgame, other than this device overlays a new version of the timeline instead of splitting away a new timeline, and that also because of that difference there's some rules about erasing. Also, the difference is that it makes less sense, but again, not going to go into that until a later post. And hey, at least it further disproves the idea of "Time travel is as simple as: When you time travel, you end up in another universe".

Doctor Strange is dead during the second half of Season 3, because it is indeed post-Snap, so that's fine. Wong's probably still reeling from the Snap (I know the original script recently said he died in the Snap, but it's elsewhere been confirmed he survived). Honestly, I have no problem with Kamar-Taj not getting involved the same way I have no problem with the Avengers not getting involved with some of the stuff in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., or even in some of the solo films. It's just the story being told.

Tina doesn't talk much at all about her past and the sorcerers she knew, there's no need for her to mention them. Also she probably wouldn't know Strange, she'd more likely mention the Ancient One.

Mrmichaelt wrote: In terms Tina's back story, yeah, it was disappointing they left it ambiguous to saying she and Morgan met while 'training together' but the fact they use the same casting gestures as in Doctor Strange, Darkforce, or the Darkhold was just barely enough. In my head canon I'm thinking Tina doesn't get specific because things didn't end well and ties were cut with Kamar Taj. You look at things ended up with Mordo and Kaecilius and the zealots, doesn't seem like there's a high retention rate. I'd even bet Morgan left or got the boot.

And who Nico trained with, I interpreted it as Wong. But I was relieved they didn't get specific - who knows how much further they would have effed up canon by mentioning Strange, the Ancient One, or Mordo or whoever. I think it's better they left it vague and up to our head canon.

In terms of the canon stuff, this is a timeline thread so who I to say, but like the some of the timeline material - it's a (At times irksome) wait and see. It's tough not to plant flags right away saying omg it's not canon anymore but we gotta see what happens next. I agree it's disappointing that they didn't get specific with Tina, but yeah, I don't think it's a problem.

I think she probably trained with Wong as well, but agree the vagueness was probably a good thing, all things considered.

Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: In the comics, the Dark Dimension is known as a patchwork dimension, comprised of various planes of existence conquered by the Mhuruuks.

Doctor Strange's film establishes that Dormammu constantly hungers to expand his Dark Dimension by taking over other universes, like he tries to do with ours in Hong Kong.

We can reasonably assume that the Dark Dimension we see in Doctor Strange, the Darkforce Dimension we see in Agent Carter, the Loa Dimension we see in Cloak and Dagger and the Dreamland from Runaways are simply all just different parts of the larger world.

As for the time travel, as Marvelus posted earlier in the thread, Mordo warns against branched timelines (Endgame), time loops (Agents of SHIELD) and rewriting history (Runaways) as possible outcomes of messing with the time-space continuum. And we see history rewritten in a localized space (Strange saving Wong from death), as well as time loops (the "I've come to bargain" scene) in the movie itself. The movie future proofed the MCU unintentionally when it comes to other methods of time travel.

While yes, scientifically Bruce is 100% right, and actual real life time travel would just cause branched timelines, this is fiction and thus everything can be a little more unpredictable according to what the writers want. Thanks for that comics information, I didn't know that and it helps justify the idea of the different parts of the Dark Dimension.

I mean, scientists also say time travel would just work in the causal loop way, but let's not reopen that😉.

CirUmeUela wrote: Ok you've made me feel better about it Mrmichaelt. I guess it is good they kept some of that stuff vague. If they decide to bring this cast into the MCU proper, that could be worked around just fine.

And Edward, wow great point. Mordo does warn against preventing your own birth or something and that suggests it is possible to erase yourself depending on how you time travel. Also I haven't read much of the comics, but I'm guessing there's conflicting methods of time travel there and it can all make sense somehow. And one of the novels also says the Time Stone can similarly rewrite events. I always assumed that all sorts of time-related shenanigans would be possible through different means in the MCU, considering the mess I'm aware of when it comes to comics time-related shenanigans. I just wish they hadn't done it, but it was fairly inevitable.

Edward Zachary Sunrose wrote: The comics feature all three methods we've seen in the MCU so far; looped, alternate timeline and rewriting history. Alternate timelines are the most common by far, however. Interesting, I assumed rewriting history would be the most common.

ProBot1227 wrote: Marvel Studios links to Agent Carter links to Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. links to Netflix links to Cloak & Dagger links to Runaways. Any supposed errors can easily get swept away with this simple logic. Runaways now links to Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. as well with the Darkhold (and the proposed crossover they nearly did). I wonder if Hulu might have tied Ghost Rider to the Darkhold getting to Morgan. *Sigh*.

It's not 100% as simple as that chain, because some things are two-way connections and some are only one-way. Like how Inhumans references Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and Captain America: Civil War, but nothing references it, so it can easily be snipped away from the web of the MCU if Feige so wishes. You have things like the non-canon comics and Damage Control game which link to MCU things, but nothing firmly links back, so they can be snipped away.

So, for example, just because Cloak & Dagger mentions Luke Cage doesn't mean it's inextricable from Netflix. You could theoretically snip away Cloak & Dagger and Runaways together and the integrity of the MCU remains, nothing falls apart - if you watch everything remaining, nothing is missing. You could even theoretically still lose Agent Carter (and hence also Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.) and be fine, and just assume Jarvis looks like James D'Arcy despite it not being canon. There are non-canon things like Watch the Game where Peter, Tony, and Happy still look the same, of course, or Team Thor with Thor and the Grandmaster.

Cloak & Dagger and Runaways are a package deal, Netflix is a package deal, Agent Carter and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. are a package deal really. But you don't necessarily have a knock-on effect disaster outside of those boundaries. Lose Iron Fist and you necessarily lose all of Netflix, but you don't necessarily lose anything other than all of Netflix. Lose Runaways and you necessarily also lose Cloak & Dagger, but you don't necessarily lose anything other than those two. We would just now, for example, don't know whether an article was written about Luke Cage in late 2017, or what happened to the Darkhold after May 2017.

Anyway, again, let's not think about it or talk about it. To be honest, the only reason (until the Inhumans rumour) this was ever in any sort of "doubt" was purely because people talked about it as if it were in doubt. Nothing had previously actually indicated any need for concern.

ProBot1227 wrote: Scientifically magic doesn't exist, too. I guess he was looking through a keyhole. ;) It's all a mess. Always inevitable when your franchise gets into time travel and the multiverse. Which, again, I guess was inevitable. Still a bit frustrating.

Deadpooled123's Question (Deadpooled123, Jazz2405)
Deadpooled123 wrote: Can anyone possible update me with a link of the timeline with:

AOS S5 and S6 episodes

Runaways s1 to s3 episodes

Spider-Man: Far From Home

The Punisher s1 and s2

Iron Fist s2

Daredevil s3

Jessica Jones s3

Reason being, l lost the most recent timeline document l had organised in Excel and now have to start over... on what l asked above ^^ -_____- Jazz2405 wrote: AoS S5: 12th May 2017 - 31st May 2018

AoS S6:  27th June undefined– 5th July 2019 (Flashback Coulson died: 27th June 2018)

Runaways (S1: 8thDecember – 24thDecember 2017) (S2: 26thDec 2017 – 28thJan 2018)

Spider-Man Far From Home: 20thJune - 10thJuly 2024

Spider-Man: Far From Home (End Credits Scene): 5thJuly 2024

The Punisher Season 1 (Prologue)': 24thDecember 2015 - '1stMay 2016

The Punisher Season 1: 6thNovember 2016 - 19thDecember 2016

The Punisher Season 2: 26thApril  - 16thMay 2018 (Time Jump 17thAug 2018)

Iron Fist Season 2': 3rdOctober - 27thOctober 2017 ('Time Jump 14th- 15th April 2018)

Daredevil Season 3 (Prologue – Matt falls into a coma): 10thMay 2016

Daredevil Season 3 (Prologue - Matt Murdock wakes): 30thJune 2016 Daredevil Season 3': 22ndOctober - '3rdNovember 2017

Jessica Jones Season 3: 26'th'April - 25thMay 2018 Thanks for answering Deadpooled123's question, saved me some time.

Check the timeline pages for further details about the timeline.

Runaways: Season 2 might be stretched a little bit, and Runaways: Season 3 isn't 100% nailed down to exact dates yet, but it's January/February 2018-August 2018. We'll be nailing it down soon.

Runaways: Season 3 (additional)
OK, so here's my full explanation, copied from what I wrote to someone on the discussions section to explain it (so that's why I say I'm addressing certain things that people haven't mentioned here - they were mentioned there; otherwise though this still works as an explanation, I'm not going to go through and edit it all), for why Runaways: Season 3 should be placed January/February 2018-August 2018, with the finale events beginning in August 2021. Not 2019 and 2022, or whatever else.

HOW IT SHOULD ALL WORK OUT Runaways: Season 1 Is Set in December 2017 For a start, there's all of this evidence that places it definitely in December 2017: here.

We then had the fact that Runaways: Season 2 was set over the span of 1-2 months and was confirmed by Loeb (since it was covered by his statement about releases from April 2018 to April 2019) to be pre-Snap. So, the December-January/February its set cannot be later than December 2017-January/February 2018.

Separately, meanwhile, Cloak & Dagger: Season 1 placed itself in February 2017: here. Then Season 2 was an explicit number of days later which placed its main events in late October-early November 2017. It was also confirmed (again covered by Loeb's statement) to be pre-Snap, so again the October-November could not be any later than 2017. Cloak & Dagger: Season 2 finishes with an epilogue set around a month later (with Tyrone's letter to Delgado saying he has been away for "9 months" now, as opposed to the "8 months" he has been saying all season), and some time after Destiny Gonzalez's body is found on a beach. This lines up perfectly with December 2017. It wouldn't work if Runaways was moved later, they'd be a year too early.

Runaways: Season 3 reaffirms a December setting for Season 1. Season 2, which we'll get to, spans 1-2 months, then a few days later early in Season 3 they go into the Dark Dimension, come out 6 months later, and Karolina says they've missed prom and summer jobs, fitting with it being around August and hence around December in Season 1.

Runaways: Season 3 Is Set in December 2017-January/February 2018 This mainly just follows from the setting of Season 1 being December 2017. Not much evidence exists in this season for when in the timeline it is set, only evidence for how long it spans.

If you follow the day-to-day of Season 2, it only appears to span a couple of weeks. However, there is evidence which requires it to span a little longer. See here. At a stretch, the season can be taken to end in late January 2018, and is currently taken as such. There might now be reason to take it that it actually ends in February, which we'll get to.

Runaways: Season 3 reaffirms a December-January/February setting for Season 2. A few days later early in Season 3 they go into the Dark Dimension, come out 6 months later, and Karolina says they've missed prom and summer jobs, fitting with it being around August and hence around January/February at the end of Season 2.

So, Runaways: Season 3 Is Set in January/February-August 2018, with Episode 10 Set Partially in an Alternate August 2021 Following on immediately from Season 2, we have the beginning of Season 3. This definitively spans just a few days, then we have the 6-month jump of Episode 5. It also reaffirms it still not being long at the beginning of the season since Season 1, with Amy's funeral still "two years ago", with her death being 2 years ago in Season 1.

I have seen people focusing too much on the computer saying it hasn't been backed up in 6 months, 22 days, and 4 hours. They were only gone for 6 months, as Dale says in the following episode that it's Day 189 of him living off-the-grid, making it 188 or 189 days (I'm assuming 189, since the end of Season 2, Episode 10 is evening as they drive off, with Season 3, Episode 1 opening 36 hours later and it's morning - plus it fits slightly better with the computer having not been backed up since around the time Alex was possessed) since the end of Season 2. Alex just hasn't backed it up since around the time he was possessed.

As things currently stand, the group would be going into the Dark Dimension on February 1, 2018, and returning on August 4th, with Dale's line being August 5th, since Season 2 is dated to ending on January 28, 2018. That might have to be shifted a little later, which I'll get to.

Then, we have the finale, Cheat the Gallows, explicitly being set on the 3-year anniversary of Season 3, Episode 9. So, August 2021. No way around it.

THE PROBLEMS SEASON 3 POSES WITH THESE Should Runaways: Season 1 Be 2016? There has been a suggestion that the line about Hillary Clinton in Cheat the Gallows suggests Season 1 is set in 2016. I didn't really read it like that anyway, but even if you did, it's nowhere near explicit enough to overrule the tonne of evidence for 2017.

I personally read it as "No! I'm devastated that Hillary lost the election and I can't die in this depressed state! Please, just let me live in the hope to one day see Hillary win!" Especially considering the same character, days later in Season 1, is talking about how the T-shirt has made them sad for a while (since Hillary lost).

Even if you didn't read it like that, there's plenty of wiggle room in it. Just look at all the evidence for 2017, it's not a big deal. Runaways: Season 1 should still be December 2017.

Should the Main Events of Runaways Span 2016-2019? Separately just from the addressing the suggestion that Runaways: Season 1 should be 2016 - it's not, it's 2017 - and Season 3 2019 - it's not, it's 2018 - I want to also address the suggestion that Season 1 to the later main events of Season 3 could possibly be 3 years.

It can't be. As has been dissected in us timeline-based users' detailed note-taking in the last couple of years as this show aired, the events of Season 1 are already being stretched to span just 2.5 weeks, Season 2 picks up the day after, and the events of Season 2 are already being stretched even to just span less than 5 weeks (might have to be a couple more now). The show absolutely, from Season 1, Episode 1 to Season 3, Episode 4, cannot possibly be any more than 11 weeks. This is due to various bits of references to how long between certain events and things all being "today", "yesterday", etc. (such things as it being said in mid-Season 2 to be less than 2 months since Season 1, Episode 1, said in Season 2 that Darius and Tamar's son is due in 2 weeks and then Xerxes being born later in Season 2, etc.).

Should Runaways: Season 3 Be 2019 (and the 3 Years Later Section of Cheat the Gallows 2022? In Season 3, Episode 7, a note is shown momentarily with a small date saying "July 25, 2019". This can fairly easily be discarded as one of the plethora of small timeline mistakes in the MCU, in favour of the tonne of evidence for it being 2018.

Then, in the finale, we have a strong implication that it is currently 2022, when it is said to be the 3-year anniversary of Season 3, Episode 9. Karolina has a Summer 2022 timetable up. But there's a way out.

It includes "English Lit 301", the "301" suggesting it's a 3rd year course. Karolina was 16-going-on-17 in Season 2, so should be a junior. Chase said he was a year from college in Season 1 which would suggest they're seniors, but as was discussed at the time when Season 2 threw some curveballs regarding their ages, the season basically overall was confirmed that they're juniors (Chase must be assumed to be rounding a little) and clearly that they're 16 early in Season 2. So, they should graduate almost a year after where we left off in Season 3, Episode 9. This would mean that Karolina should indeed be finishing 3rd year around 2022.

However, Karolina says in Season 3, Episode 6 that they missed graduation during their time in the Dark Dimension. But that just doesn't make sense, as previously mentioned - plus it's again been said recently, by Elizabeth Hurley, that they're 16 around the beginning of Season 3. So, either Karolina was referring to missing the year-above's graduate, or some of them planning on graduating early. Regardless, they at least missed months of education. Whatever the case, there's just no way Karolina graduated before Spring 2019.

So, her third year courses would indeed be 2022, but she should only be in maximum second year now, which lines up with it only being August 2021. Karolina must be planning ahead. A whole 8+ months might be a bit of a stretch of an assumption (if we assume summer term at least starts in April), but considering it seems to be a third year course and we've established that third year should be the 2021-2022 academic year anyway, that (unintentionally, on their part) helps us justify it as such. So, we can accept that it's indeed set in August 2021. There's just far too much evidence for December 2017-August 2018 to not accept this is August 2021. Not only everything linked and listed above, but also the below.

Runaways vs. the Snap So, Season 3 causes some problems regarding the Snap. The Snap is fairly immovably May 2018. It's dated to May 31, 2018 as things stand, and it most certainly cannot be any later than June 2018.

But, this means that as of Season 3, Episode 5, we're post-Snap. And, as previously encountered and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. (and with Jessica Jones: Season 3, ultimately pushing that season to not be placed in its natural late 2018 placement so as to avoid the Snap), this comes with the two big problems: -1) How come, out of all our characters, not a single one was killed? -2) How come, with such a monumental event having recently occurred, nobody is mentioning the Snap?

Now, technically, the final scene of Season 3, Episode 10 is the only scene certainly in the aftermath of the Snap, if indeed it is taken to be August 2018. This is because it is set in the final version of the timeline. The previous episodes are set in a previous version of the timeline, before it was changed by the Season 3, Episode 10 2017 events. So, we can only be certain that the Snap occurred in the final version of May 2018. However, when the group jump from the new December 2017 forwards 8 months, they arrive at events identical to Season 3, Episode 9. This means that in this new version of the timeline, from December 2017 to August 2018, things turned out essentially identically to how they did in the original version of the timeline (up until they change the timeline again in August 2018), and this would then imply that, since the Snap must have occurred in this version of the timeline, it did also presumably occur in the original version of the timeline. If the Snap didn't occur in May 2018 of the original version of the timeline, but did in the new one, you would expect things to be significantly different, certainly at least different enough that you don't end up with all the same characters in the exact same places at the exact same time in the exact same situation in August 2018. Plus, with so little changed in 2017 (and most of the little that was rectified by 2017 Alex's memory being wiped), there is no reason why the minuscule, and rectified, tweak in Los Angeles would have any effect on Thanos and the Avengers in the long run.

So, ideally, the timeline would avoid the Snap, of course.

This provides further evidence against 2019. If Season 3 were 2019, not 2018, that involves moving the whole show up a year. Because, as mentioned, the show is definitively December-August (and then August 3 years later). It cannot be stretched or compressed or whatever, it's all set in the span. So it would become December 2018-August 2019 (and August 2022). This makes the whole show post-Snap, which solves nothing - we still have the miracle of them all having survived nonetheless, but now we also have 2.5 extra seasons of nobody addressing the Snap. As well as this, it also would drag Cloak & Dagger forward a year (for the epilogue of the finale to line up), making Season 2 of that show also now suddenly post-Snap. So you'd be dragging 3.5 extra seasons of television post-Snap, ignoring two to four seasons' worth of evidence for it all being 2017-2018 and not 2018-2019, ignoring Jeph Loeb's confirmations, and causing just far more problems.

Now, no one is suggesting moving the show to 2013-2014 so that the 3 years later can be August 2017, still pre-Snap. That's not happening. But if the show were all set 3 months earlier, that would be better than the current situation. It would mean that the only part of the show set after the Snap is the 2021 stuff (and the 2028 scene). The 2021 stuff is 3 years on from the Snap, so with the little we're shown, that works mostly fine with no one talking about it. It wouldn't necessarily have to come up in conversation at some point. It also lessens the number of characters you have to assume survived to what, six (not including the new characters, who don't matter because they just by definition are people who have to have survived the Snap)? Down from a 1 in thousands chance to a 1 in 64 chance. Plus, that stuff is only 99% likely set in a version of the timeline with the Snap, not 100% definitely, as discussed. So, if the show were all moved up 3 months earlier, we'd have September 2017 for Season 1, September-October/November 2017 for Season 2, October/November 2017-May 2018 for Season 3 (then May 2022 for the 3 years later stuff).

Unfortunately, that doesn't work. Season 1 is clearly December with the non-specific holiday dance thing that's clearly for Christmas and other evidence linked and listed above, and Season 3, Episodes 6-9 are clearly at least July with them having missed graduation, prom, and summer jobs in their time in the Dark Dimension. No, it's December 2017-August 2018 and not September 2017-May 2018 unfortunately.

Should Runaways: Season 2's Ending in Fact Be February 2018? This is the one thing about Season 3 which does actually seemingly change what has come before. Season 2 is currently dated to ending on January 28, 2018, which puts Dale Yorkes' Day 189 line on August 5, 2018, and Season 3, Episode 9 just shortly after that (I haven't quite got to working out the exact number of days - I will shortly). However, on the 3-year anniversary of Episode 9, it looks like school is in session for Molly. This should make it at least late August. This would then mean that Season 2 should probably actually end about 3 weeks later than it is currently dated to.

This might also align with a calendar shown in Season 3, Episode 6 behind Dale as he says it's Day 189. It seems to start on a Wednesday, it's hard to tell. August 2018 started on a Wednesday, so that would fit, except he seems to have crossed off 22 days, which would suggest it's now the 23rd.

I'm going to have to go back and look at Season 2 to see if it's possible to stretch Season 2 a little bit extra. It was tricky stretching it as much as it already has been stretched, so it will probably be very hard - but it might just be possible with a few assumptions being made.

SO, THE RESULTS
 * Cloak & Dagger: Season 1 - Still February-March 2017.
 * Cloak & Dagger: Season 2 - Still October-December 2017.
 * Runaways: Season 1 - Still December 2017.
 * Runaways: Season 2 - Still starts December 2017, might move ending from January 2018 to February 2018.
 * Runaways: Season 3 - Starts in January/February 2018. Jumps to August 2018, unfortunately post-Snap. Jumps to June 2028, August 2021, and December 2017, before returning to August 2018 for the ending.