Thread:CirUmeUela/@comment-27496405-20180307074410/@comment-2112031-20180715155015

BEJT wrote: Moving Ragnarok again was a given. I've honed the non-contradictory evidence weighting values now, so it would just be about adjusting the Infinity War dates in the calculations and seeing what comes out - it would move the film later, to November/December.

I don't think it's worth disregarding the "12-06-2017" for the sake of about 10 days. It should either just stand or be disregarded out of a need for it to be like a month or more later.

But yeah, Ragnarok could indeed be right before the December 4th return. The New York scenes could even be as late as December 3rd, with Ragnarok continuing through concurrently to the events of Episodes 11 and 12. But it'll probably end up a bit earlier than that.

February-March just about works for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - it really does feel like the furthest limit. And it's a compromise between the January vs. June dates.

Legal sentences don't operate on calendar years though, but it could be possible to assume some sort of reduced sentence. Is the only mention of "2 years" Jimmy Woo's line?:

"... That was a violation of Article 16 Paragraph 3 of the Sokovia Accords. Now, as a part of his joint plea deal with Homeland Security and the German Government, he was allowed to return to the U.S. provided he serve 2 years under house arrest, followed by 3 years of probation, and avoid any unauthorised activities, technology, or contact with any former associates who were or currently are in violation of said Accords or any related statutes."

If this is the only mention then we have a little bit of wiggle room because they don't specifically say he's done 2 years, just that he was sentenced to 2 years, and it is separately said that he is coming to the end of his house arrest now.

I have a relative who's a lawyer, albeit in the U.K., but I've written an email to her to see if she can help with some advice about how this stuff works. Early December for Ragnarok seems about fine. I feel that it's better to avoid November due to Kevin Feige's statement on the matter. I know that you mentioned earlier that placing it in late November based on evidence wouldn't be in contradiction with that statement, but avoiding it if possible seems like a better idea, especially since the movie doesn't really feature much of Earth anyway. We'll see what'll work out best.

BEJT wrote:

Interesting, bit of a shame that you didn't enjoy The Defenders too much, I thought that while flawed, it was a really enjoyable coming-together of the shows and great seeing the characters interact. And it's not hated-on or anything, but it gets a bit too much flak I feel for the Hand being forgettable - but I think it's still really solid.

I also think it's a bit of a shame that you don't like Luke Cage: Season 1 much. I think it's pretty strong for the most part, with a great vibe and a really slick and cool first half and a rockier but still good second half.

I thought you liked Iron Fist: Season 1 a bit more than that.

Again, glad Jessica Jones: Season 2 worked for you more than it did for me. The Alisa stuff just never clicked for me, sadly, which was very important for the second half of the season. I was really hoping to love it, but sadly, I just couldn't quite come around on it fully.

The Netflix shows get too much hate. Just today I've seen critics saying they "want to claw [their] eyes out" with these shows for how over-long they are, and that "everything they've made since Jessica Jones: Season 1 has been average at best". I get it, the 13 episodes is a bit of a problem - more with some of the seasons than with others - but if they're going to keep doing it, I think people need to accept it a bit more and get over it. Lately, seasons like The Punisher: Season 1 and Luke Cage: Season 2 I think have managed it much better. Sure, 10 would probably be more succinct, but honestly at this point breaking the "13 for all solo shows, 8 for The Defenders" rule would mess with my OCD anyway. I think if you watch the shows a bit slower, a bit more spaced out, they're more enjoyable.

I would give scores to the shows like you have, because it's more representative of the differences in quality than a mere ranking. However, unlike the films, where I can score them because I've spent plenty of time going over and over my rankings and scorings and because I'm just evaluating each one as a whole film, with TV shows I feel the need to individually score each episode and then average them, and I've only kind of got half-finished old spreadsheets where I started doing that. Also, the average score tends to come out lower than maybe is representative of my feelings about the show, because no TV show achieves its heights every single episode. For example, a film scoring a 9/10 would make it one of my favourite films, and is really hard. A TV show scoring a 9/10 is even harder because for one episode to score 9/10 is just as hard as it is for a film, and we could be talking dozens or even hundreds of episodes - thus, it becomes even harder to achieve an average score of a 9/10. So like my favourite shows ever are perhaps more likely to score closer to an 8/10. I'd say that the netflix shows get plenty of appreciation all things considered. There are people who are more dismissive of them and even go so far as to say that they don't consider them to be canon (I recently saw someone declare them non-canon due to the Trump references, which they regard as contradicting Ellis being president as of Iron Man 3).

In general, however, people really like them. A lot of people didn't like the progression of the second half of Luke Cage: Season 1 following Cottonmouth's death, but many still like it overall. Iron Fist: Season 1 is pretty universally accepted as the low point of the shows and The Defenders is generally regarded as lackluster due to the slow pacing in the early episodes and the Hand being rather weak villains.

However, Punisher: Season 1 is generally regarded as an exceptional return to form and the recent of outings of Jessice Jones and Luke Cage, although the former's reception is somewhat mixed, have generally being well received.

I myself have generally enjoyed all of them quite well, even though I'm fully aware of the numerous flaws in Iron Fist: Season 1, I still managed to find at least some enjoyment in it.

I similarly couldn't rate any of them with a definite number, it would end up being very subjective anyway.

BEJT wrote:

You're right, on rewatch I noticed the "11", so right, it doesn't actually count for disproving 2018, oh well. It doesn't go against 2017 either.

True, but it does pretty much go against the season being in 2016, so there's that at least.

BEJT wrote:

No, that counts for what I was thinking about, good remembering! I was thinking of things that were first set up in a non-Netflix show that then later got referenced in a Netflix show - so St. Agnes' Orphanage, Creel, Roxxon, and the Dogs of Hell would count, and now O'Reilly. Yeah, I'd forgotten about the Dogs of Hell, thanks for the reminder. You're welcome. I happened to see clips from the episode in which the Dogs of Hell appeared, so that's why I happened to remember them.

BEJT wrote: Yeah, so the "Mid-'80s" (shown on-screen as "Mid 80's" but that's bad grammar and I don't like it😂) flashback is no later than 1985. But to be honest, it might end up a bit more like 1984 or even late 1983, because Cornell is significantly younger than he is in Manifest in 1987. I'll see how the calculations work out.

The age gap always confused me because the over 21-year age gap between the adult actors, the mention of people assuming they were aunt and nephew, the changing diapers thing, and Cornell saying that even when he was little, Mariah was already flirting with Pete, all suggested a wider age gap. But I got confused with the fact that in Manifest, while Cornell is 14, Mariah is said to be "studying". But it doesn't have to mean she's under 21, especially with the revelations about Tilda in Season 2 and everything Mariah would have gone through with the pregnancy, she could very well just be taking some sort of later further education - not immediately out of high school.

I also wanted to know the actress' age at the time of calculating the age gap, but it wasn't available. However, I had a bit of a trawl through social media last week and I found it - Megan Miller, young Mariah's actress in Season 1, was born March 4, 1986 (from here (fun fact, Elijah Boothe who played young Cornell actually commented on this post) and reaffirmed here). Also, the new actress who plays young Mariah in Season 2, Toree Alexandre, was born August 22, 1995 (here). So that will help my calculations. Good point about Cornell's age, it definitely pushes the flashbacks a bit further into the earlier part of the mid-'80s.

BEJT wrote:

Yeah. Didn't catch the license plate, is it just a registration sticker or is it specifically a plate? If so, I didn't know plates could be significant for date evidence in America the way they are in the U.K., someone will have to explain that to me.

And, of course, with Episode 7 having now also aired - they also mention it being "8 years" multiple times. It's looking like maybe late 2008 and early 2017? Something like that. Yes, it's a plate. It's visible when Tandy goes up to the car in order to stab the tire. According to this site, vehicle plates in Louisiana must be renewed every 2 years, meaning that the events of Season 1 are set in the range of 2016, 2017 or 2018.

BEJT wrote:

Right, I'll probably dip back in soonish. And yeah, as I've mentioned, I'm emailing my relative to see if she knows anything that can help. Sounds good, hope the information will help.

BEJT wrote:

OK, I'll definitely have to have another look at Deke's individual, personal timeline through those episodes. I'll have a skim through tomorrow. I passed it off before as being more to do with the fact that he didn't really break his arm but was shot in the arm and then had the operation. He wears a sling for a bit, and then loses it for the last few episodes, right?

I just felt that the strong implication of continuity from Episode 14 through to 22 overruled it because I just couldn't see any possible gap of more than a few hours between Episodes 18 and 19 because they really do act like it just happened.

But yeah, I'll have another look. Having looked at the episode again, Deke seems to get shot in the shoulder rather than the arm. However, as I mentioned earlier, such an injury would still require a minimum of at least several weeks in order to fully heal, so it doesn't really change much about my original estimate.

I do generally agree that Episode 19 "feels" like it's not long after the previous episode. However, there is definitely at least a short timeskip, since everyone is back at the Lighthouse and reporting on their respective duties. The dialogue between characters regarding the events of the previous episode is vague enough that we could insert a couple of weeks or even months between them.

Again, not ideal, but it can be done.

BEJT wrote:

Yup, they do. I decided I had to go to an online version simply for the early Jimmy Woo scene to get the exact dialogue, and it also included the mention of the 3 days. So yeah, I've seen a couple of early minutes of the film. Well, it's good to be thorough. I live in the Netherlands, so the movie will be out here on July 17. However, I probably won't be seeing it until the end of this month or near the start of the next one.

BEJT wrote:

On the other hand though, the body being in the river could mean that Pete had been dead for a little while. What should we go with, about 3 or 4 days? It's very difficult to tell I'm afraid. If you look very closely at the ballistics report when Misty flips the page, the page states that the body was in a state of "advanced decomposition", suggesting that it might have been there for a while.

Also, the page contains a mistake. It states that the body was found "outside, inside vehicle", even though it's explicitly stated in dialogue that the body was actually dragged out of the river. It's no big deal, just a small oversight.

BEJT wrote:

Yeah the ending was really interesting, and I got a very different interpretation out of it the second time.

Rosalie Carbone is set to show up in Daredevil: Season 3, so hopefully we'll at least get a little bit of a mention of what's going on in Harlem with Luke. I didn't know about her being in Daredevil: Season 3, that's nice. Donovan might also appear, since he's also Fisk's lawyer.

BEJT wrote:

It's the Statesman, I think the Sovereign was another Sakaaran ship. But yeah, it could work if really necessary - probably closer to late November though I'd say. I'll just see what the calculations give. Whoops, my mistake. It turns out that Sovereign is actually the name of the gold-skinned aliens from Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2.

BEJT wrote:

Yeah, as I said above, I agree. It's not worth ditching the 12-06-2017 for the sake of gaining a week or two I don't feel. BEJT wrote:

Yeah as I was saying, definitely going to have another look at Deke's arm and his injury timeline. Yep, sounds good. Looking forward to hearing your conclusion.

BEJT wrote:

There's rumours going around about that, based a bit on Tony's hair and on the teenage actress who will supposedly be playing Cassie Lang.

I had a look at the sample of the new Ant-Man and the Wasp: The Heroes' Journey book and it mentioned that Cassie was 10, and I've heard that Cassie is actually said to be 10 in the film. Since we know from Ant-Man that Cassie's birthday is July 20th (well, we know the scene is July 20th give or take a day or two maximum, but July 20th definitely seems to be the date), and since Ant-Man and the Wasp is definitely set between July 20, 2017 and July 19, 2018, we now have a date of birth for Cassie. She must turn 11 on July 20, 2018, meaning she was born July 20, 2007.

The supposed new actress Emma Fuhrmann was born September 2001, making her about 16y1m old at the middle of filming for Avengers 4 in October 2017. So that would suggest that, if the rumour is true, Avengers 4 is set c. August 2023 - basically, about 5 or so years after Infinity War.

I'm not sure though, because Ty Simpkins is supposedly back as Harley, which would suggest it's just present day, unless they try to make him look a few years older.

Also, a small note, I'm surprised with Cassie's date of birth. Abby Ryder Fortson was born March 2008, making her about 6y7m old at the middle of filming for Ant-Man in October 2014 - however this new date of birth would make Cassie actually just-turned-8 in the film. She was about 9y6m old at the middle of filming for Ant-Man and the Wasp in September 2017, but Cassie would be 10, coming up on 11. Usually child actors play characters slightly younger than themselves, or the same age at most - it's unusual for something like this to happen, where the character is over a year older than the child actress. I would have thought that even without having to put that much thought into it, they might still basically just go with Abby's age, 9, when writing the script or filming the scene, but no, they chose 10. Whatever though, it's not beyond the realms of possibility, and it's always nice to get a solid date. I agree that we don't know any of this for sure and that repeating rumours isn't the best idea.

Good point about Harley, although, if time travel is involved, they could just have him appear in the 2018 portion of the movie.

Who knows, perhaps the film will depict Cassie trying to use a new, experimental version of the Pym Particles and it accidentally ends up aging her or something. Anything can happen really, time travel wouldn't need to be involved.

At least we now have a firm placement for Cassie's date of birth, so that's nice.

BEJT wrote:

It's possible though that it picks up years later and then later in the film they go back in time. But I don't know, I think people are probably overestimating the amount of time travel in the film (if there's even any). A lot of the discussion is kind of under the assumption that time will be reversed, but I'm hoping for something a bit more unexpected. It would be nice if they manage to make it all work without necessarily needing to resort to time travel. Comparisons with X-Men: Days of Future Past would be inevitable if time travel is actually used.

Of course, the time travel wouldn't necessarily have to be physical. It could be like the 2011 Mortal Kombat reboot, in which one of the characters sends a vague message to his younger self on how to prevent the bad future, which allows the focus to remain on the present day characters without devoting too much screentime to a future that will inevitably be undone.

I could easily see the whole thing ending with Future Tony getting the gauntlet and then sending a message to his younger self in 2018. Or he could send a message to Thor to aim for the head.

BEJT wrote:

Yeah, I mean it was mainly just a mistake, with them likely just thinking back to all the times we were told by Marvel last year that he'd been gone for 2 years. The statement was just a little bit helpful for justifying the January 2018 placement.

To be fair, I am more comfortable with Infinity War being later than January. It just works better for the film on its own. But, of course, sadly this is suggesting much later and it's causing problems for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. - I would have loved for them to say in Ant-Man and the Wasp that he had like 3 months left, forcing us to place it in March and causing problems but not too many for Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and securing Infinity War in a position that better fits its timeline references and weather. Yeah, I'm really hoping we'll manage to work out a decent timeline that fits all the references. I'm reasonably confident that we'll manage to do it.

BEJT wrote:

It's kind of unclear how much of the time travel discussion is rumours and how much of it is merely another case of people making assumptions so much that then, because people heard it from someone else. and they heard it from someone else. in a Chinese whispers-like line, the discussion becomes "there are rumours" when, in fact they're actually aren't. This is happening more and more frequently, with people actually thinking things are confirmed when they're not. It wasn't until a month or two before Infinity War that we finally got an explicit confirmation from people at Marvel that there would be character deaths in Infinity War, but people had been saying it was "confirmed" for months and months, even a year or so before that. It was never confirmed that Ant-Man and the Wasp would be set before Infinity War, just very much assumed, but the story became that it had been "confirmed".

But, both of those examples did still turn out true. I don't know, time travel has to be involved in some capacity, right? Surely? But like I said, I'm hoping for some creativity and not just resorting to a "change the timeline" story, which I'm quite tired of in superhero series. Honestly, for me, the less time travel the better. After dealing with time travel in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, I'd imagine having a break from it indeed seems like a good idea.

I suppose it was poor wording on my part to say that it was "practically confirmed", since what I meant to convey was that most of the stuff we've seen thus far is highly suggestive of it.

Of course, that still doesn't amount to being confirmation, so yeah, just poor wording on my part.

BEJT wrote:

Yeah it's true they said it, I brought up in I think early May-ish when they mentioned it and we were deciding on the January placement. It's definitely a mistake, but was just a slight thing that happened to help a little bit in justifying a placement so early in 2018. Alright then. I tried to find the quote online but didn't succeed, so I wasn't entirely sure.

BEJT wrote:

Hmm, we'll see. The Reddit thing about alternate realities was debunked so don't let that stick in your brain when making Avengers 4 predictions, but yeah, the use of the word "reality" in the Avengers 4 synopsis was interesting. I'm excited that we don't know, though, to be honest. I'm not really one to make predictions and guesses about the plots of films ahead of time - I find it sets an expectation and then I'm more likely to feel a bit odd about the film if it doesn't fit the narrative I have in my head. We'll be fine as long as we don't get too attached to the theories. I'm reminded of those people who continue to dismiss Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. to this day because the show didn't turn out the way they wanted it be (primarily the lack of full on crossovers with the movies).

Theorising is perfectly fine as long the final product itself ends up being a great and fulfilling experience in and of itself and people can handle not having absolutely everything they wished for come true.

BEJT wrote:

Yeah, true, although I sadly doubt they'll feel tied down by the rules of the universe that the TV shows have introduced. Heck, it's looking like the TV shows aren't even following each other's rules, because Runaways is going to have to deal with the whole potential earthquake future without the excuses of the white monolith and that kind of thing that Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. introduced. To be fair, we still don't know how that one will get resolved. It's possible that they'll handwave it away by saying that the machine only shows the most likely future at that exact point in time.

It's kinda like showing someone an image of the future in which they buy their favorite flavor ice cream. If they hadn't seen that future, they would indeed have bought it, but now that they have seen that future, they can deliberately prevent by either buying a different flavor, buying something else, or not buying anything at all.

BEJT wrote: Thanks for linking that thread, The Wikia Editor. Yeah, the one-shot doesn't really fit either way, but it's canon and it has to be chosen one way or another, and it fits, relatively speaking, a lot better before the show.

The "Timeline" page is, admittedly, a constant frustration. It's locked for admins only to be able to edit, and is full of mistakes. It's got lots of minor mistakes as well as some major ones about the order of things, especially with the way the Netflix content is arranged in relation to everything else. I've actually started compiling a big list of the edits I feel should be made to the page. I've had plenty of discussions with Shabook about it, but to no avail. He's done a lot of great stuff and allowed a lot of things for our work, so no hard feelings or anything, but I really do disagree with his "real time until proven otherwise" policy and his feeling that the columns system doesn't suggest concurrence. There's nothing we can do about it, but it does stress me out quite a bit. There's one comment from Michele Fazekas from the time Season 1 was coming out where she said that they "sort of imagined" the one-shot as the end of the series, and Shabook decides this is confirmation that the one-shot is set after the whole show, and overrules all the evidence. The show could have gone on for years and I think it would still be placed there on the Timeline page. I've tried, but it didn't get moved. Yeah, it's frustrating when that happens. It's similar to how I disagreed with him about Tina Minoru, since the actual statement from the showrunner was a non-commital "we won't aknowledge it" rather than "they're two different characters", which is how Shabook took it.

Still, it's not really that big a deal and perhaps some connection will be stated or at least implied later down the road. In any case, I get what you mean.

BEJT wrote:

Definitely going to check out this Deke stuff. Yeah, he was shot, he didn't really break his arm, so there's perhaps a bit more leniency with the recovery time. But thanks for your research, I'll try and have a look at all the Deke stuff tomorrow. Well, there's no mention of him having broken any bones, so that might create a bit more leniency. Still, it doesn't seem like the kind of injury that would just heal overnight or even after just one week.

I'm looking forward to reading what you think of it after rewatching it.

BEJT wrote:

Yeah, I agree about Coulson and about Spider-Man: Far from Home.

March seems probably about right, but I don't really know what conclusions to draw yet. I've been thinking about it a lot and I've decided I'll wait until my relative replies to me before I start to put across my opinions on it, because honestly, I just don't know whether shortened sentences or that kind of thing are perfectly realistic or not at all.

Yeah, Season 5's pretty good. I found it a little disappointing at times if only because Season 4 was really good and this felt like a bit more of a return to Seasons 2 and 3-level quality, but it has some real highlights in it. The Talbot stuff I thought was a bit silly. To be fair, if Scott's sentence is related to the Sokovia Accords, we could just assume that operates under slightly different rules than regular sentences.

I don't know much about the topic either, so yeah, I can't really add much to it.

As for Season 5, I really liked it. But I do prefer the second half, when they're back in the present. There was nothing wrong with the first half, but it consisted mostly of setup and teasing the team's future. Not to mention the fact that it took place in a single, isolated location filled with characters that we'll likely never see again. I didn't dislike it or anything, but was mostly just waiting for them to get back to the present.

BEJT wrote:

Yeah, as I've said, I don't really know what my thoughts are about it. I'd love for March to work, but I don't know, and I'm hoping my relative's response will help to guide my thoughts on what to do about the problem. Well, again, the Sokovia Accords might work differently. Unless they explicitly stated that Scott had to serve a full 24 months sentence, we can probably exploit some wiggle room there.

BEJT wrote:

It does kinda suck about waiting, but I've actually pretty much avoided spoilers so far, surprisingly. There's some stuff I think I might have stumbled upon, but I'm doing reasonably well. I'm looking forward to it, it does look a lot of fun from the trailers, and a good counterpoint to the heaviness of Infinity War. Yeah, I also kinda stumbled in that regard, but I'm still mostly fine in terms of remaining spoiler-free. So that's good.

BEJT wrote:

My laptop's fixed, my to-do list is done, my priorities are set, and my summer work has finally started. I'm currently finishing off the exact final dates for all of Jessica Jones: Season 2, which should help CirUmeUela as well. Soon, I'll also be posting my Luke Cage: Season 2 notes and continuing to clean up/write up the 2018 Infinity War/Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Season 5, Episodes 19-22 events, write up Black Panther, and resume going through my list of TV episodes that need write-ups (sort of in order of air date, it's a bit more complicated than that - but starting with finishing off the checks for The Defenders). And plenty more to come. Excellent, I'm sure it'll end up looking great.