Marvel Cinematic Universe Wiki:Community Portal/Archive IV

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Codenames vs real names
{{archive At the moment, our naming policy says "Character entries should be listed by their Marvel Comics codename if it is used for the character either as a proper codename or used as an alias for the character within the Marvel Cinematic Universe." We may have to change that, and the sooner we do that, the better for the Wiki. Why should we do that? Because of one simple reason. We have multiple characters who are using the same codename. Black Panther (T'Chaka and T'Challa), Ant-Man (Hank Pym and Scott Lang), and it's quite possible we'll soon have more of them (Wasp - Janet van Dyne and Hope van Dyne). We already have one real and one fictional Captain America, and if Steve Rogers really dies at the end of Captain America: Civil War and Sam Wilson takes his place, we'll have another real Captain America.
 * result= The MCU Wiki will continue to use Code Names for characters
 * discussion=

BTW, if two characters use the same codename, it's usual that that the codename leads to the first user of that codename. In our case, the codename Ant-Man leads to Scott Lang, the second user. That needs to be corrected.

In some cases we are already ignoring the policy in one way (Baron Strucker/Wolfgang von Strucker, Baron Zemo/Helmut Zemo) and in some cases in another way (Baron Mordo - No degrees or titles, such as General, Agent or Doctor).

We already had to change one article from one codename (War Machine) to another one (Iron Patriot) only to have to switch back to the original codename (War Machine). Using the real names would prevent such problems from ever happening again. Therefore, my proposal is to move all heroes and villains articles to their real names and keep the codenames as titles of the articles only if the hero's/villain's real name is unknown (like the Mandarin). What say you?--Uskok{{sup|S.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters}} 18:01, October 31, 2015 (UTC) Also, Marvel uses, most prominently, the codenames, that is the reason the movies are called Captain America: The Winter Soldier, instead of Steve Rogers: The Bucky Barnes; Iron Man 3 instead of Anthony Stark 3, Daredevil instead of The Adventures of Blind Matt Murdock, and so on. As for people sharing codenames, we use, logically, the codename for its current user, just like every other information in this wiki. The proposal as it is currently redacted based its reasons on things that are not true.--Shabook (talk) 18:10, October 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * I totally disagree. Maybe the current policy needs some clarification and a better redaction, and I'm not against that. And your redaction here has been misleading. The change of a codename (War Machine to Iron Patriot to War Machine) is covered in the current policy, and that reflects the "then-current" information about the character. There is also another section where it talks about having titles or degrees in a codename, such as Doctor Strange or Captain America.
 * On a side note. Even the Marvel Wiki, that tends to use full real names even when they are hardly ever used, has needed to ignore its own policy regarding the most popular characters.--Shabook (talk) 18:13, October 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * But if Sam Wilson becomes the next Captain America, we'll have to edit more than 500 articles so they could lead to Sam Wilson's article and not Steve Rogers' article anymore. That's why the Marvel Database Wiki uses the real names and not the codenames anymore. We should follow their example. The names of the movies will stay the same. No one is proposing to change the names of the movies.--Uskok{{sup|S.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters}} 18:16, October 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * We are going to base this on something that may happen in the future? If that is the reason, and if that happenes in, (let's say, 3 or 4 years?) I will personally fix each and every article. I've visited many similar wikis, and the ones that use real names instead of the more popular codenames receive constant messages to change them. I think a full change is a bad idea, and, quoting yourself, we are not the Marvel Wiki. On the other hand, as I said before, a review of the policy with clarifications and examples that have appeared since it was written and maybe some changes if needed is more than welcome.--Shabook (talk) 18:26, October 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * Then you should also quote my "We shouldn't say no to something good from another Wiki." I'm not basing this on something that may happen in the future, this is what had to be done a long time ago, but three years ago New Captain was still an active admin and I just went with the flow. What if it turns out that Gideon Malick is the MCU verion of Albert Malik and the next Red Skull? Should we move all links to Red Skull to Gideon Malick? It would look ridiculous.--Uskok{{sup|S.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters}} 18:35, October 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * You're basing this proposal on things that may happen, not on facts. And I doubt it is something good. As I said before, they don't even follow their own policy, and I know for a fact that it has led to multiple mistakes. For example there were and there are lots of duplicated pages about exactly the same characters by only changing a little word. And I know it for a fact because I edited there this summer trying to fix as many as I could, but it was such a mess that it's almost impossible. That's not something we should import.--Shabook (talk) 18:42, October 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * I would be fine moving all pages to character's real name/most used name. So it would be Steve Rogers instead of Captain American or Steven Rogers.Coluanprime (talk) 18:54, October 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * @Shabook That's why we should import only the good things, not the mess. I believe no one wants the mess here, and Marvel Wiki has so many problems because it's so big. We, on the other hand, don't have them, and we can prevent them with this preventive action.
 * @Coluanprime That's what we still have to decide but I prefer the full names, or in this case Steven Grant Rogers.--Uskok{{sup|S.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters}} 18:58, October 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm even more against that. Who calls him Steven Grant Rogers? Or Margaret Carter? Or Samuel Koenig? As I said before, we don't need to change the whole wiki just in case something happens in 2018 or 2019...--Shabook (talk) 19:05, October 31, 2015 (UTC)

My counterproposal is, like I said before, to improve and clarify the current policy to take care of different examples that may have popped up since the policy was written. As for acting regarding things that may happen in the future, we should not do that. We have always wait until Marvel says something to act having all the cards on the table (Marvel acts, we react). In this case, changing the codename from one of their most notable characters (Captain America), would require a lot of explanation from Marvel, both in-universe and out-of-universe, aimed to the general public that watches the movies but doesn't read comics or know about them as much as we do. I believe that's the prudent and correct way to act.--Shabook (talk) 19:45, October 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * I have always wished we referred to people by their real names, like Steve Rogers instead of Captain America, or Tony Stark instead Iron Man, for the reasons Uskok initially listed. KennyChief (talk) 20:20, October 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * I believe that the way we got the articles named works just fine, because as Shabook said not everyone know as much as us about these characters. Even Raina said it "Have you ever heard of Steve Rogers? No. Captain America, now he's on the news and lunch box and a poster on the wall." Everyone know the names of the heroes, but not the real names. Now, this happens to me when I go to the Arrowverse Wiki, I go there and try to look for a character using their alias, then I see that there are multiple names when I look for one character (F.E. I try looking for "King Shark" and when I type King there appears two names "Derek Reston" and "Shay Lamden") My point is that it is confusing to look for one character and then it appears different names instead of the name your looking for. --AKA S.I.H (talk) 20:47, October 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * I am in favor of Uskok's proposal, but not completely for the reasons stated. The codenames are much more important and prominent in the comics. In the MCU, real names are much more prevalent with codenames more for marketing to nods to comic book fans. For example, characters like Ivan Vanko and Bobbi Morse were marketed as Whiplash and Mockingbird, but never referred as such onscreen. I also like the consistency of real names because everyone has one. It would be clearer and easier to determine. As it stands now, I have seen several disputes that might have been avoided. I am in favor of using the most commonly used real names, e.g., Steve Rogers. - DinoSlider (talk) 20:59, October 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * I prefer code names for the reason that SIH gave, especially the Raina quote. I believe when a person wants to read an article, they look for the code name first, because of marketing. The comic con told us "Mockingbird" was coming; she has never used that name on the show, but someone new will search for "Mockingbird". That is why we have redirects and disambiguation. When i grew up, comic writers had a policy: This issue might be the reader's first, so it must be written so that the newbie will feel comfortable, but the plot can also progress. When a newbie comes to this wiki after watching a movie, he, imho, knows code names from classic characters, not first or even last names. Who knows Johann Schmidt? But if i ask, "Who is the Red Skull?", there is immediate recognition. We must remember the person who comes to the wiki for the first time and how we can help that newbie enjoy his experience here and contine to read our hard work. "Ant-Man" is Scott Lang; the movie was about him. Hank Pym WAS Ant-Man; but we provide the LATEST information. IF, IF Sam Wilson becomes Captain America, then we should do the same thing that we did for QUAKE; the past is the past and now we adapt. We should tackle this problem, cross this bridge, when we get to it. Acting proactively for this would be confusing and, i think, would hurt our readers.Bratpack (talk) 23:56, October 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * I disagree, people who watch the show will look for Bobbi. Millions of people watch the show, a few thousand saw the video. Comic names can be maintained as redirects but the articles should be titled by real name.{{Unsigned|Coluanprime}}


 * I agree. And like Shabook said, IF Falcon or Bucky become Captain America, then no matter how much work needs to be done, no matter how many links need to be changed, we will put our time and effortinto fixing every single link. I will personally assist him with changing them all. MCUFFTW ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ 01:00, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * Redirects will always send a reader to the proper location in either case (status quo or accepting the proposal). However, perhaps we should consider a different option. Why not pages for both? Steve Rogers is a person, so he deserves a page. Captain America is a notable title, so that deserves a page. Why does one or the other need to be a redirect? If Bucky Barnes or Sam Wilson takes over the title, then it could be noted very quickly and easily. If there is too much duplicate info, that could be resolved using templates. Just a thought. - DinoSlider (talk) 02:12, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with Bratpack and SIH. The codenames are iconic, and that's what most, if not all people look for. I think we should keep them. Dr.Who1997{{sup|To The Playground}} 08:35, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * But the codenames will redirect to the first users of that codename. Captain America to Steven Rogers, Ant-Man to Henry Pym, etc. We don't even have to move the articles to their full names. It can be Steven Rogers instead of Steven Grant Rogers, Natalia Romanoff instead of Natalia Alianovna Romanoff. We can even move the articles to their most common civilian names (Steve Rogers, Natasha Romanoff), but the titles like Baron and Captain shouldn't be used as the names of the articles.--Uskok{{sup|S.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters}} 09:06, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm getting confused already and nothing has happened yet!! Are you saying that, in the FUTURE, when i type "Ant-Man", it will refer me to Hank Pym ('cause, right now, it goes to Lang)? Why would i want that? I would want to go to the larest title holder. You know what is so ironic: i asked this same question EXACTLY a year ago on the comment board of "Black Panther (film)"; we are divided along the same lines then as we are now...Bratpack (talk) 11:43, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * I think DinoSlider has a good point. These are superhero names, and each superhero has 1 or more aliases. When i search for Scott Lang, it should refer to Scott Lang, not to Ant-Man. When i search for Ant-Man it should refer to Ant-Man.The Donutman (talk) 12:16, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * I think we should leave things as they are for now and react accordingly to changes when necessary.--Greater Good (talk) 13:23, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * If anyone is interested, I did a quick test to show how my idea could work. I have a codename page, Ant-Man, which includes only the biographies from the individual pages Hank Pym and Scott Lang. - DinoSlider (talk) 13:46, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with others that we should mantain the aliases instead of the real names. Many wikis add the real names instead of the aliases, but the MCU wiki is more unique than any others because we use the aliases, which is not only more fun, but loyal to what attracts most people to this kind of wiki: the superhero themes. Speaking of double aliases, no problem on that. Ant-Man is Scott Lang now, not Hank Pym, so Scott should be called Ant-Man, not Hank, same goes for T'Challa and T'Chaka on Black Panther.--Draft227 (talk) 12:26, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * And when Sam Wilson takes over the mantle of Captain America, the best known holder of the name overnight becomes some anonymous Steve Rogers. As for where the codenames should redirect, as a counter-solution, they could lead to the disambiguation pages. Captain America to Captain America (disambiguation), Ant-Man to Ant-Man (disambiguation), Baron Zemo to Baron Zemo (disambiguation), etc.--Uskok{{sup|S.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters}} 19:20, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * But you are basing this on a personal though that a character may become another one. This didn't happen, and if happen, the members have made clear that they will all do their best to change all the pages, such as Shabook said in one of the first commentes.--Draft227 (talk) 17:52, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * Before I vote, let me see if I understand this completely. If I like the way the naming policy is now, I vote for Code Names. And if (for example) Sam or Bucky becomes a new Captain America, their pages will not be renamed to show their new codename? Please correct me if I have this completely wrong.--Professor Ambrius (talk) 20:56, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * @Draft227 But if we use the titles for the names of the articles, why not have General Ross instead of Thaddeus Ross? This is also another case where we are ignoring the policy (Thunderbolt Ross) in favor of the more practical option (real name). I'm just asking to apply that more practical option on all articles, not just some of them.
 * @Professor Ambrius If you vote for Code Names, the situation stays problematic as it is. The solution will just have to be postponed for another time. I would rather solve the problem now than have to wait for another year.--Uskok{{sup|S.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters}} 21:23, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * Again, a reason that's not true. The rank/title is used sometimes, by some characters, as his codename. We all know examples in popular culture (Doctor Strange, Doctor Octopus...), but that doesn't mean that every doctor uses its medical degree as his codename. As for Ross, the codename he has had in the comics is Red Hulk, "Thunderbolt" is a nickname, and the current policy explains the difference between them.--Shabook (talk) 21:29, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * We both know what you're saying is wrong. Before he became Red Hulk, Ross was best known as Thunderbolt Ross. Since that name was used in the MCU, why are we ignoring our own policy and calling him by his real name? Either everyone should be called by their codenames, nicknames, or titles, or no one. It's too bloody confusing.--Uskok{{sup|S.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters}} 11:21, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * I do agree that Ross should be called "Thunderbolt" Ross for consistency reasonsl; that is his iconic name.Bratpack (talk) 11:29, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * But that's exactly what would sound silly. In Captain America: Civil War Ross will be the new US Secretary of State. Can you imagine anyone calling him "Secretary of State Thunderbolt Ross"? The Marvel Cinematic Universe is the most realistic of all realities of the Marvel Multiverse and this Wikia should reflect that.--Uskok{{sup|S.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters}} 11:35, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, the voting process is open, every active editor has the opportunity to reflect there their opinion.--Shabook (talk) 11:47, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * Romanoff went to a US Senate hearing; how many people called her "Black Widow" there? However, Romanoff's battle against Sofia is stupid if BW was not a recognized name in the intelligence community. Code names are used in the appropriate settings...Bratpack (talk) 12:29, November 3, 2015 (UTC)

Votes
Here you can vote about the proposal to change the way character pages are named in the You can vote for using the real names or using the codenames by adding your signature (Typing ~ ). The voting process will last for exactly a week, which means it will end on November 8 in 19:35 UTC. All voters must be active members of the wiki, having joined before the voting process began, and having edited an article in the last two months.--Shabook (talk) 19:35, November 1, 2015 (UTC)

For "Real Names"

 * 1) UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters 20:17, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * 2) Chrisflistal (talk) 21:51, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * 3) Coluanprime (talk) 23:03, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * 4) SHIELDAgent154 (talk) 00:57, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * 5) X-Men Are Cool {talk) 04:04, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * 6) --HYDRA Agent (talk) 07:45, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * 7) Dutch You SOB (talk) 17:26, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * 8) -- Bold  Clone  19:49, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * 9) Draft227 (talk 20:41, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * 10) DinoSlider (talk) 00:00, November 3, 2015 (UTC)
 * 11) Flash 205 (talk)Flash205
 * 12) KennyChief (talk) 01:00, November 3, 2015 (UTC)
 * 13) Moleman 9000  01:08, November 4, 2015 (UTC) (Some exceptions should be allowed tho)
 * 14) Carnassis (talk) 06:11, November 4, 2015 (UTC) (Code names should follow in parentheses)
 * 15) Zero-ELEC (talk) 06:52, November 4, 2015 (UTC) (Abbreviated names when available, of course. As in no middle names or patronyms or stuff like that.)
 * 16) DavidAtkins77 (talk) 12:38, November 5, 2015 (UTC) (Code names should still link to current hero)
 * 17) SeanWheeler (talk) 18:09, November 5, 2015 (UTC)

For "Code Names"

 * 1) Nurdboy42 (talk) 19:38, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * 2) MCUFFTW ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ 19:57, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * 3) Dr.Who1997To The Playground 20:05, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * 4) Lowriders95s10 (talk) 20:06, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * 5) Bratpack (talk) 20:08, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * 6) Knightman (talk) 17:24, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * 7) 1stAvenger (talk) 21:38, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * 8) AKA S.I.H (talk) 22:03, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * 9) Babyrockhopper (talk) 22:53, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * 10) Bridgetterocks (talk) 07:40, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * 11) Erisiel (talk) 09:26, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * 12) The Donutman (talk) 12:04, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * 13) Rodangizzardcrusher3 (talk) 17:17, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * 14) Professor Ambrius (talk) 17:40, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * 15) Greater Good (talk) 18:45, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * 16) 8th Hero of Olympus (talk) 19:20, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * 17) The Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. (talk) 23:03, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * 18) Saltzmann (talk) 11:24, November 3, 2015 (UTC)
 * 19) Actionzephyr 06:16, November 3, 2015 (UTC)
 * 20) Shabook (talk) 19:34, November 8, 2015 (UTC)

Other Comments
I will not vote, because I am fine with both ways.TomasDerksen (talk) 20:58, November 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * This is just an idea, but what if we were to do what some other wikis do and call the articles "Codename (Real Name)". For example for Ant-Man, you could have one article called "Ant-Man (Scott Lang)" and one called "Ant-Man (Hank Pym)". Just wondering if that might work.BEJT (talk) 22:20, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * I have an idea. Why don't we use the "Codename" for the current version of the Hero? For example: Scott Lang is Ant-Man but Hank Pym is just Hank Pym The Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. (talk) 23:03, November 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * I have a curious question. Why is this vote restricted to those who have edited an article in the last two months? The voting policy states that the voting process are open to all users. - DinoSlider (talk) 00:22, November 3, 2015 (UTC)
 * @BEJT That would look sillier than the current policy.
 * @The Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. That's exactly the current situation.
 * @DinoSlider That's something Shabook added on his own initiative.--UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters 09:43, November 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * I added that because I've seen people going to other wikis and ask former editors to come and vote their options. That ids, besides extremely unfare for the people who actually edits and contributes to this wiki, something very low...-Shabook (talk) 11:39, November 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * And some of those "former" editors have done more for this Wiki than regular "editors" who know only how to post endless comments and nothing else. If anyone should be forbidden from voting, it's those who have posted dozens of comments but haven't made a single edit.--UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters 12:19, November 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Then I guess I can't vote because I only comment on forums and can't find much to edit. SeanWheeler (talk) 18:39, November 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * you can vote aslong s it has been within those 2 monthsTomasDerksen (talk) 18:54, November 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * I wasn't talking specifically about you, Sean, you're one of the newer users, but some users have been here much longer than you but still need to make their first "real edit".--UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters 19:24, November 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * That's the reason it was specified that an article needs to have been edited in the last two months prior to the beginning of the vote. By the way, two months is the amount of time that general Wikia uses to consider an editor active or not. Some of the current votes on both sides are not valid.--Shabook (talk) 19:28, November 5, 2015 (UTC)

Votes from users X-Men Are Cool, Moleman9000, SeanWheeler and 8th Hero of Olympus are not taken into account. Either way, the option to keep using codenames has been chosen by a majority of users. The policy will be reviewed as soon as possible to make sure it is clear enough for all users to be interpreted. Also, articles will be reviewed to make sure they follow the policy. Thank you to all editors for their participation.-Shabook (talk) 19:37, November 8, 2015 (UTC) }}

Relationship section
{{archive Hello Editors! I have noticed that within this wikia we always divide our relationship section simply in three parts. Family, Allies and Enemies. Except for the family part this means we use a verry small view, every positive relation is an allie, every negative one is an enemy. In reality a lot of the relationships would not fall in one of the two sections. I therefor advice a new section, basicly neutral.
 * result= Revoked because of complications
 * discussion=

As example I will take Trish Walker her allies: Old version:

Allies

 * Luke Cage
 * Malcolm Ducasse
 * Reva Connors † - Fan
 * Zack
 * Nicole - Intern
 * Kozlov
 * Diane Masagi - Interviewee

New version:

Allies

 * Luke Cage
 * Malcolm Ducasse

Neutral

 * Zack - Colleague
 * Nicole - Intern
 * Kozlov - Simpson's Doctor
 * Diane Masagi - Interviewee
 * Reva Connors † - Fan

From the old allies liest only Cage and Ducasse, who helped against Kilgrave, could be mentioned as Allies. All the others, while having a positive relationship, are not her ally nor her enemy.

Changing this all will take a load of work, but I think it improves the wikia.TomasDerksen (talk) 11:27, January 16, 2016 (UTC)

Reactions
Good proposal! I completely agree. I would go farther however and simply remove the headers and list each individual person as the relation ship they have. Allies, Neutral, and Enemies still seems far too broad.Coluanprime (talk) 20:10, January 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * I only used the word Neutral as an example, the word neutral could be replaced with everything. I like to keep the relationships divided with headers, but it should still be realistic.TomasDerksen (talk) 20:14, January 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * I like this proposal. I thought about it a while back, as I would sometimes run into problems with deciding where characters belong in the relationship sections. I believe this will help with a lot of the situations we could run into. MCUFFTW ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ 20:43, January 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * I like the individual tags idea, if the list is too long, we can simply use columns to make it appear smaller.--Shabook (talk) 23:50, January 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * As for the example used above, I would put Zach and Nicole in the Allies section since they have history together and friendship from being colleagues. Many times when editing these sections I become conflicted when it comes the character interactions between Trish Walker and Dr. Kozlov for instance. They show no threat or dislike toward each other; not enemies. And I can't exactly say they trust each other either so I wouldn't say they are allies. They are just two characters who were in the same room together. I think this would be a good way to keep the section more organized than they already are. MCUFFTW ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ 00:50, January 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Nicole is just an intern, so they have not known eachother long and Zack is a colleague helping her with the show. But being a friend or a colleague doesnt mean being an ally. An ally is someone who fights/stands on your side against the same enemy. Some people have no allies at all within the MCU. Benson by example, she has colleagues. They are not her allies, only her colleagues. There is a line between having a possitive relation (like those you mentioned) and being allies. I would also agree with just individual tags to keep the entire problem away.TomasDerksen (talk) 00:55, January 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with Shabook.Coluanprime (talk) 01:01, January 19, 2016 (UTC)

I like this idea. I think it would be a great way to clean up the relationship section on some characters pages.The Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. (talk) 22:51, January 18, 2016 (UTC) I most definitely support this idea - it allows for a greater understanding, without the constraints of some people just having to be either one or the other.8th Hero of Olympus (talk) 23:43, January 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * I like it as well. Having just Allies and Enemies is pretty limiting. 1stAvenger (talk) 01:04, January 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * I also like the idea as it is a great way to expand the wiki. AKA S.I.H (talk) 02:29, January 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * I like it too. Like it's been previously said, it helps organize the Relationship Section and broadens it.--Professor Ambrius (talk) 20:19, January 20, 2016 (UTC)

Just a question for Shabook, since no one seems to be against changing it, should a vote be placed with the option for removing those subsections entirely or adding a neutral one?TomasDerksen (talk) 22:09, January 20, 2016 (UTC)
 * Looks like everyone that has commented agrees with a change, but there has been two different proposals here, adding the "Neutral" sub-section, or removing them and adding individual tags. Comments from most people are not clear enough if they support one or the other, so we'll see if people clarifies it. If there is a majority of comments for one, we can skip the vote, if it's not clear, we'll open a vote...--Shabook (talk) 23:46, January 20, 2016 (UTC)

Voting
I would like to ask everyone to place a vote on the system they would like for the relationship section. This vote will be following our normal vote policies.TomasDerksen (talk) 00:31, January 23, 2016 (UTC)

No Sections
For those in favor off having no tags at all, just one list with a clarification behind the names.
 * 1) Coluanprime (talk) 01:11, January 30, 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) TomasDerksen (talk) 00:31, January 23, 2016 (UTC)

Adding Neutral
Like the proposal says.
 * 1) SHIELDAgent154 (talk) 00:47, January 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Bratpack (talk) 00:49, January 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) MCUFFTW ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ 00:55, January 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) The Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. (talk) 00:56, January 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) 1stAvenger (talk) 01:40, January 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * 6) AKA S.I.H (talk) 16:19, January 30, 2016 (UTC)
 * 7) Dr.Who1997To The Playground 17:13, January 30, 2016 (UTC)
 * 8) Silacko (talk) 23:05, February 27, 2016 (UTC)

Keep it how it is
Keep it how it is. }}

Changing Out of Universe layout
{{archive Hello,
 * result= Added
 * discussion=

I wanted to add a section for awards to crew/actor article on the wikia. This should be mentioned in the policies in the following way:

Actors

 * Awards
 * The awards section for actors must contain the awards he or she either won or was nominated for related to their work within the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
 * The awards section will be divided with headings for the movies/tv-series he or she was nominated for.
 * Awards should be written as follows:
 * Solo nominations: He/She was nominated for a (Award name) for (Category) for his work on (Work he was nominated for, linked)
 * Solo awards won: He/She won a (Award name) for (Category) for his work on (Work he was nominated for, linked)
 * Shared nominations: Together with (name, linked) and (name, linked) he was nominated for a (Award name) for (category) for his work on (Work he was nominated for, linked)
 * Shared Awards won: Together with (name, linked) and (name, linked) he won a (Award name) for (category) for his work on (Work he was nominated for, linked)

Crew

 * Awards
 * The awards section for crew members must contain the awards he or she either won or was nominated for related to their work within the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
 * The awards section will be divided with headings for themovies/tv-series he or she was nominated for.
 * Awards should be written as follows:
 * Solo nominations: He/She was nominated for a (Award name) for (Category) for his work on (Work he was nominated for, linked)
 * Solo awards won: He/She won a (Award name) for (Category) for his work on (Work he was nominated for, linked)
 * Shared nominations: Together with (name, linked) and (name, linked) he was nominated for a (Award name) for (category) for his work on (Work he was nominated for, linked)
 * Shared Awards won: Together with (name, linked) and (name, linked) he won a (Award name) for (category) for his work on (Work he was nominated for, linked)

What does everyone think?

Comments
A few things. When you say that the Awards section wil be divided, how? A Table? Headings for the Films/TV series? Headings for the different Awards? An organized list with bullet points?? Also, it needs a clarification in the first quote to explicitly refer to the Awards related to their work within the Marvel Cinematic Universe.Shabook (talk) 19:28, April 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. Headings for the different films/TV-Series. I will add those 2 pointsTomasDerksen (talk) 12:19, April 9, 2016 (UTC)

With no other comments made I will add this to the policies tomorrowTomasDerksen (talk) 22:47, April 16, 2016 (UTC) }}

Removing Lego Avengers articles (earth-13122)
{{archive Hello, Since the first articles about Lego Marvel's Avengers were added on this wikia people have been against it, for multiple reasons. One of the reasons is that this wikia, as is stated on Marvel Cinematic Universe is about Earth-199999. Lego Marvel's Avengers and all its content takes place on a different reality, earth-13122.
 * result= Removal of Lego articles
 * discussion=

Since they are from a different reality I propose that all these articles and images will be removed from the wikia.TomasDerksen (talk) 11:36, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

Comments
I agree, I've never been a fan of having these pages since they're not part of the MCU. Dr.Who1997To The Playground 11:40, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

I also 100% agree... I always disliked it and I don't understand what having this information included adds to these characters pages... Although I do feel bad about all the work Greater Good put into it. Nerdtastic1221To The Playground 12:44, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

I agree to remove pages related to the Lego Universe. They are not relevant to MCU, and do not belong to this wiki. Silacko (talk) 11:48, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

I also agree, those pages shouldn't be on this wiki.AKA S.I.H (talk) 12:37, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

Pretty much everything in the game is based on content from the MCU movies and TV shows, and the developers of the game made it specifically to be based on them. The game uses dialogue and music from the MCU movies and had several actors from the MCU record original dialogue as their characters, and many significant events and characters from the MCU are both featured and mentioned in it. While it is developed by the same company and has a similar visual and gameplay style as Lego Marvel Super Heroes, it clearly isn't set in the same universe or continuity as it. Hell, it even says on the game's Wikipedia page that it is a spiritual successor to Lego Marvel Super Heroes, a spiritual successor being defined as "type of sequel that is not part of the same world or story as its predecessor, but is nonetheless considered to be a successor because it's made by the same creators; shares common themes, styles, or elements; or, most likely, both."

Every movie up to this point except for Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant-Man had video games based on them and we have included content from those games, but since they're not part of the MCU canon we acknowledged this. Why is Lego Marvel's Avengers any different?

To be totally honest, I find the arguments against it flimsy at best and on a personal note considering the many hours of work I put into adding content from that game, I will consider it a massive slap in the face if all of that gets deleted.--Greater Good (talk) 12:45, July 27, 2016 (UTC)
 * You mention the fact we got other games based on movies on our wikia and ask the difference between those and Lego Marvel's Avengers. The main difference is that those games are part of Earth-19999, even though they are non-canon, and this game is not part of earth-199999. We are not a general marvel wikia, so we should not be adding stuff from a different earth.TomasDerksen (talk) 12:58, July 27, 2016 (UTC)


 * Where has it been stated that Lego Marvel's Avengers isn't part of Earth-199999, though? I know the Marvel Wiki says that it is part of Earth-13122, but that seems to be based solely on its similar style to Lego Marvel Super Heroes. Like I said before, it's not a sequel to that game nor does it tie into it in any way, and it contains about a million different instances in which it either features or references content from the MCU. The wikis for Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Harry Potter, The Lord of the Rings and Jurassic Park all feature content from the Lego games based on their movies, and since Lego Marvel's Avengers is very clearly based primarly on the MCU, removing all of that content based on such weak reasoning doesn't make any sense.--Greater Good (talk) 13:14, July 27, 2016 (UTC)
 * Then I hope for you that there are people who agree with you, but if the majority does not theyw ill be removed.TomasDerksen (talk) 14:12, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

Since we feature lots of non-canon content, I don't think having the lego game here compromise anything... In my opinion if we remove the lego pages, then we should remove all of the games and non-canon comics pages as well.--Blaublau94 (talk) 14:16, July 27, 2016 (UTC)


 * I would suggest that everyone here go to the game's page on the Marvel Wiki and have a read through its talk page. They got into two separate discussions prior to and following the game's release and it's pretty clear to people who are familiar with both games that Lego Marvel Super Heroes and Lego Marvel's Avengers are not set in the same universe. It's quite obvious that when the game was announced someone created a page for it assuming it was a sequel to Lego Marvel Super Heroes and after that proved not to be the case they never bothered to correct their mistake.--Greater Good (talk) 14:23, July 27, 2016 (UTC)


 * In this interview (http://marvel.com/news/video_games/24790/arthur_parsons_assembles_lego_marvels_avengers), the game's director Arthur Parsons talks about how the game is separate to Lego Marvel Super Heroes:


 * "Well, it’s not a direct sequel [to “LEGO Marvel Super Heroes”], but it’s kind of the spiritual successor. It’s the same game directors, same design team, same team at TT. We see it as, like, “Let’s take everything that worked really well in ‘LEGO Marvel Super Heroes’ and then kind of add to that.” But obviously, while that game is an original story, this is more the movies’ stories in LEGO style, which is kind of where the LEGO games work best."


 * In this interview (http://www.comicsbeat.com/playstation-experience-2015-game-of-show-lego-marvels-avengers/), when asked about a potential Spider-Man appearance (this was before the DLC was announced) he said:


 * "[Laugh] There’s none. It’s not something we’re going to shy away from. What we’re covering is phase two MCU and he’s not there, so why do that and again it’s not something we necessarily want to go to. But hey you can swing around with Daredevil and his billyclubs.


 * Yeah. There’s a few other characters people won’t be expecting that are going to be in there. I think once people see the full roster no one is going to care. It’s like… we did that [Spider-Man] with Lego Marvel Super Heroes, why go there again? We’re trying to give people an awesome NEW experience. Yes, we’re bringing Thanos over when he hasn’t fully made his appearance in the MCU yet, but you kind of have to because he’s so important to the Avengers storyline so far."--Greater Good (talk) 16:01, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

It's not part of the MCU though. Characters like Ms. Marvel and Spider-Woman doesn't exist in the MCU and others that does like Jessica Jones and Daredevil are completely different in the games.

Although as I said before I value your hard work. -Draft227

Personally, I'm still not convinced that this game takes place in MCU. On the other hand, I would feel bad if all those character biographies and galleries were deleted, due to Greater Good's efforts. How about satisfying both parties as follows?

We can keep the article for the Lego Marvel's Avengers game, but get rid of the non-canon character pages. Then, those biographies can be added to the Non-canon Bios section of the game article. This way, we can keep all info in one page, and prevent the wiki from getting crowded by irrelevant characters. As for another benefit of doing this, we won't need to move a non-canon page every time its canon version emerges.

So, what do you think? Silacko (talk) 16:59, July 27, 2016 (UTC)
 * This seems like it makes the most sense. Coluanprime (talk) 17:20, July 27, 2016 (UTC)


 * If we have some official confirmation that the game is set in Earth-13122, I would remove all the Lego Marvel's Avengers-related articles. All other games were promoted as part of the MCU, so there's nothing wrong with keeping those articles, even if their content is non-canon. Just because some of the events and characters in Lego Marvel's Avengers were inspired by the MCU doesn't mean they're the same. For example, the Avengers Assemble animated series was heavily inspired by the MCU, but it's still not set in the MCU. The Guardians of the Galaxy animated series was made as the direct continuation of the film, but it's still not set in the MCU. However, as a compromise, in the existing characters articles who did inspire the look of their Earth-13122 counterparts, I would put notes in the trivia section about how the Earth-13122 version of the character was inspired by his/her MCU counterpart, maybe even leave a link to that Earth-13122 character's page on the Marvel Database so whoever wants, he or she can see with his/her own eyes that what we're saying is true.--UskokS.H.I.E.L.D. Headquarters - Playground 17:52, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

I think that we do not need to delete anything that would be an insult for Greater Good, but I do not like the idea of having these articles on Categorys like Heroes or Villains. I suggest to create new categories like Video Games Heroes, Video Games Villains or something like it. But I still not liking the idea of having those articles on Earth 199999 Categories.--Marvelous 345678 (Talk) July 27, 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree with Silacko's idea.--Draft227


 * I agree with User:Silacko too. Keep the their Lego Marvel's Avengers appearance and perhapse mention of the character has an appreance based on their comic counterpart.--Professor Ambrius (talk) 19:28, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

I tweeted Arthur Parsons, the game's director, and I explained the situation to him and asked for his input. Here is his response: https://twitter.com/KevCarney91/status/758318826304012288 --Greater Good (talk) 20:14, July 27, 2016 (UTC)
 * And that tweet has a few key words: "For me". He is not the one to decide though.TomasDerksen (talk) 20:58, July 27, 2016 (UTC)


 * He directed it. If anyone knows what universe it's set in, he does.--Greater Good (talk) 21:00, July 27, 2016 (UTC)


 * Has any MCU source confirmed it though? Feige, for example? The author of Black Widow: Forerver Red and Black Widow: First Strike said the same thing yet her work is 100% not on the MCU and we don't have pages for it. Like Uskok and the others have said, it follows some of the movies' themes but it's not in the same universe, therefore we shouldn't have a page for each character in the game when the best thing is having only the game page and the non-canon brand. We could move all the characters' info to the game's pages, but they shouldn't be categorized and have their own pages. - Draft227


 * People keep saying that it's not in the same universe when there's a plethora of evidence within the game itself showing that it is. Where is the proof that it isn't, when all of the previous non-canon video games are acknowledged as being MCU products? Besides, why would Feige need to comment on it? His focus is on the movies, nothing else. --Greater Good (talk) 21:23, July 27, 2016 (UTC)
 * You know it does not work that way? You have to prove something is, not the other way around, that is like saying I need to proof unicorns do not exist, while you claim they do. The game is inspired by 6 mCU movies, but also the comics from other earths. It has both characters inspired by the MCU, and characters that are in the MCU but are completely different. The only one saying it is part of the MCU is the creater of the game, who just sees it as being in the MCU (For me it is). There has been no confiration from marvel that is is part of the MCU, if it would have been it would have been on the internet on man pages.TomasDerksen (talk) 21:29, July 27, 2016 (UTC)
 * Because, as Tomas and Uskok said, they were specifically made to tie-in, and the continuity errors would only come later when the movies were released (like Strucker for example). While it holds many homages to the MCU (like the first LEGO Marvel Superheroes did) LEGO Avengers is not meant to be canon in any way, as it's world has multiple superheroes and supervillains who does not exist in the MCU, and different character designs for some like Jessica Jones, who is equal to her comic counterpart and not her MCU one. I am against the addition of non-canon but this isn't being discussed right now. --Draft227 (talk) 18:38, July 27, 2016 (UTC)


 * That argument is irrelevant, though, considering that the Iron Man 3, Thor: The Dark World and Captain America: The Winter Soldier games were all treated as non-canon from the moment they were created. --Greater Good (talk) 21:38, July 27, 2016 (UTC)


 * Untrue. Until the release of TWS there was no implication nor official confirmation Captain America: Super Soldier was non-canon. Besides, the point has come where it is not the creation of the LEGO Avengers game poage, but rather the creation of all the characters in the game, which may be unecessary; some are mixed with canon characters and others have the layout changed to add both canon and non-canon appearances which is uneeded. --Draft227 (talk) 19:00, July 27, 2016 (UTC)


 * But the point is that those games were never intended to be part of the MCU canon anyway. --Greater Good (talk) 21:59, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

I think we should remove Lego marvel related character pages and so-on. The are not only non-canon, but not even truly MCU related. Gerisama (talk) 21:54, July 27, 2016 (UTC)


 * It is MCU related though, since the vastly dominant influence on the game is the movies and (to a lesser extent) TV shows set in the MCU. --Greater Good (talk) 21:57, July 27, 2016 (UTC)
 * Influenced by and related too are different.TomasDerksen (talk) 21:59, July 27, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, but when the influence is as obvious and prominent as it is in this case, they would have needed the permission of the creators to utilise as many things from the original product as are in this case. --Greater Good (talk) 22:02, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Silacko to place all of the bios onto the Lego Marvel's Avengers page, as it would be a great way to condense dozens of articles into one page that will contain all information related to the game. These articles are generally really short anyways, so it wouldn't be too much of a problem to contain them to one page (which would be really long, however). Greater good has done essentially all of the work on these character bios, so deleting them all would be an extreme waste of his time and effort. SonOfAres1 (talk) 22:33, July 27, 2016 (UTC)


 * Agreed. --Draft227 (talk) 19:44, July 27, 2016 (UTC)


 * I appreciate that, I really do. I wouldn't have even bothered creating the content for that game if I didn't think it fit within the way this wiki operates, and it's because I think it does that I am making this argument. When a product isn't canon, which is the case with all of the comics and certain tie-in comics, we acknowledge that it isn't canon but we include because it is based on an MCU product and is very much intended to be set within that universe. The fact that it so closely follows the plots of the MCU and features so many elements from it carries so much more weight than the inclusion of non-canon characters, which was never a problem with the previous games. --Greater Good (talk) 22:52, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

I think that this IS an MCU game. EVERY character that appears is owned by Marvel Studios, it doesn't feature ANY kind of original story (apart from the DLCs), the Agent Carter missions, for example, ALL make sense within the MCU, and not outside of it. It is non-canon, of course, but we've had things from mobile games that we all know aren't canon either. As a player of both games, I can guarantee this is DEFINITELY not a sequel to LEGO Marvel Super Heroes, and the man who directed both agrees with me. So I think we should keep them until the canon version of the characters appear. Then they can go to a Trivia section like we have done before with other characters. You may say the other games were promoted as part of the MCU... Well, this one is too! There is MOVIE DIALOGUE throughout the whole game, the stories are basically the same with minor twists, there is NO character not owned by Marvel Studios... I think these pages should stay like this until we have a canon version of the character. If they go, then other pages like Kearson DeWitt should go, and others like Surtur purged from their game info. --Bridgetterocks (talk) 00:53, July 28, 2016 (UTC)


 * That is true for the most part. The only exception I'm aware of is Kang the Conqueror, who James Gunn has confirmed that Marvel do not have he rights to. Then again the Badoon, who Gunn has also confirmed Marvel don't have the rights to, appear in Thor: The Dark World Prelude and that IS canon. But the whole argument being made for deleting the pages is based on the belief that the game is set in Earth-13122 instead of Earth-199999, which is quite simply untrue. Upon playing or watching both Lego Marvel Super Heroes and Lego Marvel's Avengers, it's very clear that the games are not connected to each other plot wise and are only similar is terms of style, and that the latter is very much intended to be set within the MCU, even though it isn't canon to it. --Greater Good (talk) 08:34, July 28, 2016 (UTC)

Okay, I'm going to examine the evidence for and against this game being set in the MCU, and it should make it very clear what reality it is intended to be set in:

Evidence For:


 * The game's entire story mode is based on six of the MCU movies. The Avengers and Avengers: Age of Ultron each have six levels dedicated to them, with one containing an extended flashback to the events of Captain America: The First Avenger. Iron Man 3, Thor: The Dark World and Captain America: The Winter Soldier also get one level dedicated to them each.


 * The Ant-Man DLC level is based on the movie, and the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. DLC level is based on the latter half of the second season.


 * All of the HUB worlds are major MCU locations: New York City, Asgard, Sokovia, South Africa, Washington, D.C., the Joint Dark Energy Mission Facility, Clint Barton's Homestead and the Helicarrier.


 * The game features music from the movies composed by Alan Silvestri, Brian Tyler and Ramin Djawadi.


 * Most of the dialogue used in the cutscenes is lifted directly from the movies, recycling film dialogue from Robert Downey, Jr., Chris Evans, Chris Hemsworth, Scarlett Johansson, Jeremy Renner, Mark Ruffalo, Samuel L. Jackson, Tom Hiddleston, Don Cheadle, Paul Bettany, Anthony Mackie, Stellan Skarsgård, James Spader, Aaron Taylor-Johnson, Elizabeth Olsen, Idris Elba, Thomas Kretschmann and Claudia Kim.


 * Clark Gregg, Cobie Smulders, Hayley Atwell, Ashley Johnson, Michael Peña and Ming-Na Wen all recorded new dialogue as their MCU characters for the game.


 * Most of the Peggy Carter missions are based on things that happen in the first season of Agent Carter, with the player having to help her infiltrate the Roxxon Refinery, retrieve Edwin Jarvis' car keys from the sewer, help her reach the Griffith Hotel when the Strategic Scientific Reserve come after her and help her calm down civilians affected by Midnight Oil released by Dottie Underwood and Johann Fennhoff. Other missions also have the player giving her a ride to the New York Bell Company Office, taking her to see Angie Martinelli audition for a play and helping her try to disrupt a broadcast of The Captain America Adventure Program.


 * Several of the side missions are based on information established in the MCU with the player having to do things such as help Pepper Potts get rid of the giant bunny bought for her by Tony Stark, protect Ulysses Klaue from some attacking cuttlefish, go up against Justin Hammer in a dance-off, return customers scared off by the Battle of New York to the cafe that Beth works at and help Jasper Sitwell locate rookie S.H.I.E.L.D. agents scared off by the Destruction of Project P.E.G.A.S.U.S..


 * Side missions featuring characters introduced in this game, such as Ms. Marvel, Agent Williams, the Damage Control Worker and the S.H.I.E.L.D. Scientist all reference major MCU events.


 * A lot of dialogue spoken by civilians features obvious references to events and characters from the MCU:


 * "Aliens in London, England? Next they'll be in Cardiff, England; or Glasgow, England!"


 * "I knew I recognised the so-called "Mandarin". By the way, his King Lear - overrated."


 * "I got a cousin in Tennessee who swears blind he saw Tony Stark in a diner out there."


 * "Those aliens certainly made this a memorable holiday. I must remember to tell Auntie Vera about this."


 * "The cops in Stuttgart only had to deal with Loki - I have to deal with angry New Yorkers and ridiculously unprepared tourists. This job."


 * "Who would win in a fight between a Quinjet and a Chitauri Chariot? Wait, what do you mean I just missed that?"


 * "Grayburn College? I thought it was Empire State University?"


 * "The Johannesburg Damage Control branch is really gonna have their work cut out for them." - Damage Control Worker


 * Phil Coulson references things that have happened to him in the MCU:


 * "I think we're clear. Y'know, this seems to happen every time I stop for gas. I'm starting to think it would be easier to just catch a flight." (this line is spoken upon completing a mission where Coulson and the player are attacked at a gas station, an obvious reference to Marvel One-Shot: A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Thor's Hammer)


 * "That's another win for the good guys! Normally, I'd keep score by putting little marks on the walls but I...kinda try not to do that so much anymore."


 * "Thanks for lending us a hand, not that I'll need an extra hand any time soon."


 * The game features DLC levels based around Doctor Strange, Black Panther and Captain Marvel, each of whom are the focus of an upcoming MCU movie.


 * In the PS Vita version, there is a greenhouse on the roof of the Nelson and Murdock Law Office, and when the player approaches it as Daredevil he comments "I small avacados", which is an obvious references to himself and Foggy Nelson calling themselves "avacados at law".


 * In the Sanctuary after Loki's defeat, Thanos is shown with the Thanos Power Mix, an obvious reference to Awesome Mix Vol. 1 from Guardians of the Galaxy.

Evidence Against:


 * Marvel Wiki labels it as being set in Earth-13122, but upon reading it's talk page (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:LEGO_Marvel%27s_Avengers) it's made pretty clear that someone created it's page when it was announced under the assumption that it was a sequel to Lego Marvel Super Heroes, and when that proved not to be the case nobody bothered to change it.


 * Characters appear in this game that don't match their MCU counterparts. Yes, but the previous video games feature incarnations of Blacklash, Melter, Madame Masque, Rick Jones, Glenn Talbot, Firepower, Ultimo, Surtur, Hela and Wolfgang von Strucker that do not match their MCU counterparts, as does the comic Captain America & Thor: Avengers! with Malekith and Kurse.


 * The game features characters who have not appeared in any canon MCU installment. Just as the previous games feature Titanium Man, the Controller, the U-Foes, the Enclave, Bi-Beast, the Crimson Dynamo, Kearson DeWitt, Mauler, Ghost, Ymir, Ulik, Mangog, Madame Hydra, Iron Cross, the Sleeper, Heinrich Zemo and several of his ancestors, Ezekiel Stane, Living Laser, M.O.D.O.K., Sin, Taskmaster, King Cobra, Shockwave, Puff Adder and Diamondback, as does Captain America & Thor: Avengers! feature Alflyse. --Greater Good (talk) 11:03, July 28, 2016 (UTC)
 * A lot of those "for" arguments can be placed in one lable: The director used the MCU as influence for his game. Which is not a argument for it being part of the MCU at all. No where on the web can I find any source calling it part of the MCU, except the director, and we know that just a director is not enough (as seen with those comics).TomasDerksen (talk) 12:20, July 28, 2016 (UTC)


 * The exact same thing can be said about all of the previous video games. None of them were ever identified as being part of the MCU either, but since they were so heavily based on those movies, they were clearly intended to be set in that world. This press release from Marvel.com makes it as clear as day:

Today marks the launch of "LEGO® Marvel’s Avengers," an all new action-packed super hero adventure that allows players to relive the most amazing moments from the Marvel Cinematic Universe through six Marvel Studios films, while also experiencing classic Avengers characters and content from acclaimed Marvel Comics. Developed by TT Games and published by Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment, "LEGO® Marvel’s Avengers" is now available for the PlayStation®4 and PlayStation®3 computer entertainment systems, PlayStation®Vita handheld entertainment system, Xbox One®, Xbox 360®, the Wii U™ system from Nintendo, the Nintendo 3DS™ family of systems and Windows PC.

"LEGO® Marvel’s Avengers" is the first videogame to feature storylines from the critically-acclaimed film "Marvel’s The Avengers" and its hit sequel "Marvel’s Avengers: Age of Ultron," as well as playable content based on additional Marvel Studios blockbusters, including "Marvel’s Captain America: The First Avenger," "Marvel’s Iron Man 3," "Marvel’s Thor: The Dark World," and "Marvel’s Captain America: The Winter Soldier."

"'LEGO® Marvel’s Avengers,' celebrates the thrilling world of Avengers as only a LEGO game can," said Tom Stone, Managing Director, TT Games. "Players of all ages will be able to experience their favorite Marvel moments in a brand new way, through six different blockbuster films across the Marvel Cinematic Universe, while also exploring an incredible amount of classic Avengers characters and content from famed Marvel Comics, all with our unique LEGO style and humor. It’s an epic combination for fans and newcomers alike."

"Both the LEGO and Marvel brands appeal to fans of all ages through a multitude of retail, media and interactive channels," said Peter Phillips, EVP/GM, Interactive & Digital Distribution, Marvel Entertainment. "With the incredible success of 'LEGO Marvel Super Heroes,' focusing on Marvel Cinematic Universe characters and stories in 'LEGO® Marvel’s Avengers' was a natural fit for fans and the business." In 'LEGO® Marvel’s Avengers,' gamers can play and unlock more than 200 characters, with over 100 new characters that have not appeared in a LEGO videogame before. For the first time, players can execute incredible Avengers Team-Up Moves resulting in incredible combos when using core Avengers, including Black Widow, Captain America, Hawkeye, Hulk, Thor and Iron Man.

"LEGO® Marvel’s Avengers," also features a unique take on open world gameplay, with eight different environments to explore within the Marvel Cinematic Universe, including the expansive streets of Marvel’s New York, as well as Asgard, Barton’s Farm, Malibu, the S.H.I.E.L.D. Base Exterior, Sokovia, South Africa, and Washington, D.C. Players can freely roam around these open world locations using brand new gameplay mechanics, allowing Hulk to super jump off skyscrapers, Quicksilver to speed run over water, or even play as giant characters, like the menacing Fing Fang Foom, who can grow to the size of tall buildings. Open World Manhattan will also be available on handheld consoles for the first time so fans can enjoy the sprawling concrete jungle on the go, anytime, anywhere. Available today is the "LEGO® Marvel’s Avengers" Digital Deluxe Edition, which includes the main game and Season Pass, available now for PlayStation 4 and Xbox One at a suggested retail price of $69.99 and for PlayStation 3 at a suggested retail price of $59.99. The Season Pass, which is available on PlayStation 4, PlayStation 3, Xbox One, Xbox 360, Wii U and Windows PC, can be purchased separately for $9.99 and features content packs based on Marvel properties, including Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Doctor Strange, Marvel’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and the Masters of Evil.

Fans can also enjoy DLC packs based on the upcoming Marvel Studios films "Marvel’s Captain America: Civil War" and the recently released "Marvel’s Ant-Man," available as a free download exclusively for PlayStation 4 and PlayStation 3 players for a limited time. "Marvel’s Captain America: Civil War" DLC pack is available starting today and "Marvel’s Ant-Man" DLC pack will launch later this spring.

"LEGO Marvel’s Avengers" is rated "E10+" for everyone 10 and older by the ESRB and is now available for PlayStation 4 and Xbox One at a suggested retail price of $59.99, PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, and Wii U at a suggested retail price of $49.99, and PlayStation Vita and Nintendo 3DS at a suggested retail price of $29.99.

More on Marvel.com: http://marvel.com/news/video_games/25679/lego_marvels_avengers_now_available#ixzz4FhrtpVaM --Greater Good (talk) 18:59, July 28, 2016 (UTC)

I'm another supporter of Silacko's suggestion. This is a game I'm really interested in buying and find really cool, but everytime I'm researching in the Wiki and get a page like Surtur, but it's just talking about one of the games, it's really annoying. So no, I'm not saying we do this only to Lego Marvel's Avengers, but to all the other games this wiki mentions, no matter if they're canon, part of the MCU or neither.

And another annoying thing is when I'm trying to look into a character who I know is in the MCU, but we didn't get an image of them yet, and their Lego character image, or any other game's character image, is being used as the main one. That was the case of Mantis for a long time, and Surtur's one now too. These images could still be used in the character page's Trivia, to be used alongside a Trivia item stating they were in that specific game, and of course, in their Galleries, in a section reserved for their images in that game, but not as their main ones. If a canon image of the character in the MCU has not been released yet, it's better to just leave their page without a main image. At least that's my opinion about it. Uglyguy25 (talk) 20:21, July 28, 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's why we move all of that information as soon as we find out a single detail about the canon version. Honestly, it's not that difficult to find out where the information comes from, all you have to do is read the page. --Greater Good (talk) 21:16, July 28, 2016 (UTC)


 * I completely agree ith Uglyguy25 in this case. Even though the information is removed, those lego images are still simply annoying.And about the rest of the info and lego-character pages, who might never appear in the MCU, they should just be deleted (maybe stored somewhere, but not on the wiki, so that one day you could add them as trivia). Gerisama (talk) 21:29, July 28, 2016 (UTC)


 * Well I don't agree with either of you, at all. To be quite honest, I find the reasoning behind the arguments for deletion quite weak and I think I have argued my case for the game being set in the MCU very strongly. If you're going to argue why certain info shouldn't be on the wiki, it should be for the benefit of the wiki as a whole, not just because you personally don't want it there. --Greater Good (talk) 23:40, July 28, 2016 (UTC)


 * I also agree with Uglyguy25. If we don't have an official image, we shouldn't use a video game image that may be of a lower quality standard. It's fine if it's next to something in trivia. For example, if we were writing about Agent Coulson, it'd be something like "Phil Coulson was an unlockable character in LEGO Marvel and Lego Avengers." and then there would be a small picture next to it. --ChuggaaFan12 (talk) 01:11, July 29, 2016 (UTC)


 * I also agree with Uglyguy25's suggestion to apply the "gathering all character bios on a single page" method to other video games covered in the wiki. Silacko (talk) 03:07, July 29, 2016 (UTC)


 * But pages for the LEGO characters is just unneeded. I just saw a page for Red Bricks...I mean, c'mon. This isn't needed, at all. We should only have the article of the game and the characters removed, and, as suggested, maybe add their bio to the game page. And I would suggest (if someone agrees tell me) that we do the same with all other games. Have the pages for the non-canon games is okay (because they are licensed products after all), but for the non-canon characters is uneeded because they don't factor nothing in the universe and aren't relevant to have their own pages. When people use this Wiki they want to see actual MCU info, not "non-canon MCU info from licensed products chars". As much as I respect Greater good for his contributions this is my input, and if he likes to add LEGO info he should create a proper LEGO The Avengers Wiki (like LEGO Batman Wiki and LEGO Marvel Superheroes Wiki). Draft227 (talk) 133:27, July 29, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree with that. Pages for gameplay features are less than necessary in this wiki, no matter what game we're talking about. We could pick all the non-MCU characters' info (Kang, Hyperion etc) and add them to to the game page. As for the game characters that exist in the MCU (Mantis, Surtur), we could make a Trivia item in their pages and put their game information there.
 * I know it's easy to identify whether the character information is about their MCU or game version, Greater Good, but identifying them is not the problem. What annoys me is when this information is used as the main one. Last time I went to the Mantis page, my reaction was "There's more information to the character! That is great. I'm really curious to know more about what she'll be doing in GOTG Vol. 2... oh wait. That's about Lego Marvel's Avengers". Because with all due respect, I didn't want to know that she was talking to plants telepathically in the Barton farm and needed help. I'm not saying nobody cares about this, but it shouldn't be treated as the main character info. Same about Surtur, the Executioner, Hela... That's something you put in their Trivia. Like the Iron Fist page: he's mentioned in an Iron Man game, and his involvement in that game is described in an item of the Trivia, not in his main info section. And I never said anything about deleting information about the games' characters, only putting it in its rightful place and not using it as if it was actually part of the MCU canon. Nobody is trying to delete and undo your work at this point, only reorganize it. Just chill. Uglyguy25 (talk) 17:17, July 29, 2016 (UTC)


 * I know where you're coming from, I really do, and I understand your frustration. But the wiki has always operated like this. We have always featured pages on characters from non-canon MCU-based products, and we put that big sign at the top so that people can see that it's non-canon. But when one of those characters is introduced in canon, we move all of that info the the non-canon bios on the product's page and replace it with what little info we know about the canon version. The fact of the matter is that we don't have any information on the canon versions of Hela and Surtur yet, but as soon as we do their pages will be updated to fit around that info, with their game bios being moved to the game's page and a short summary of their role in the game being placed in the Trivia sections of their individual pages. --Greater Good (talk) 17:35, July 29, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, but why not doing it now? Why not doing it as soon as it's announced that a certain character will be introduced in the MCU, rather than waiting until information about their canon versions come up? It just confuses everyone. There are characters in the MCU that didn't receive any information yet and weren't in any games, so they just get a To be added in their main information section, like Ward Meachum, I think. Why not doing that? Uglyguy25 (talk) 17:48, July 29, 2016 (UTC)


 * My point is that there needs to be at least enough info to fill the intro section, even if it's only enough for one sentence. In Ward Meachum's case, knowing that he's Harold Meachum's son is enough, just like when I created the Vulture's page all that was needed was him being an enemy of Spider-Man. In the cases of Hela, Skurge and Surtur, we know literally nothing about the canon versions of these characters other than their names, the movie they will appear in and (in the cases of Hela and Skurge) the actors playing them. As soon as we get at least a little bit of info, we'll update their pages. --Greater Good (talk) 18:22, July 29, 2016 (UTC)

Also, where is the voting process for the LEGO articles and video game characters articles still be in the Wiki? A lot of people put a lot of good points on why these shouldn't be included and how to have them on the game pages without deleting the work put into them. --Draft227 (talk) 17:30, July 30, 2016 (UTC)
 * What this had to do with my comment? If we go by the new proposal many are suggesting (can we vote?), then we would exclude all non-canon characters, have their bios on the games, and trivia if the character is canon to the MCU. If the character will appear but have few information then await until we have more info to create, not fill the page with non-canon information for a canon character. Can the other admins voice their opinions regarding what is being discussed here? Draft227 (Draft227) 17:16, July 29, 2016 (UTC)
 * To be fair, through that logic, we should add that Hela, Skurge and Surtur are enemies of Thor. But I'll have to agree with Draft227 in that one: rather than filling the main section with non-canon info and then replacing it with canon one as it comes out, we should just leave the To be added there and put the non-canon info in the Trivia. That's exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned Mantis and Surtur in the first place: it just confuses everyone. Uglyguy25 (talk) 01:32, July 30, 2016 (UTC)
 * You have a point, but the unfortunate reality is that it hasn't been said that those characters will be enemies of Thor. It's reasonable to assume that they will be, since that's the way it usually is in the comics, but there's been no confirmation that that will be the case. I wish we had some info about the canon versions so that we could base the pages around that, but we don't and it doesn't make sense to just delete a page that we know we would have to create again at a later date. --Greater Good (talk) 20:24, July 30, 2016 (UTC)
 * Don't add nothing in the page then, leave it alone until further confirmation. Before we create a page, for now on, let's not add it for the sake of adding LEGO info, mainly because they will appear soon enough. Besides, yes, Surtur is confirmed as a enemy. Hulk was fighting against him in the panel wherehe was confirmed for Thor: Ragnarok.

I'm gonna clarify some facts that must be taken into account when deciding how to deal with these pages.
 * 1) First of all, the way that movies, TV series, one-shots, comics and video games are treated in this wiki cannot be compared, They are totally different products, and their pages are treated in a different way. So whatever is applied here cannot be extrapolated to one-shots, comics or other products out of personal convenience.
 * 2) Second, and knowing it may sound blunt, hard work is not a reason to keep Lego pages or anything else in the wiki. We all value hard work, but the hard work itself cannot justify the presence of any article in the wiki.
 * 3) Third, videogames set in the MCU either follow canon up to that point, or replace the canon of the movie they adapt, making themselves as a different path taken in the history of Earth-199999. This means they are non-canon in the overall MCU that followed their release, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve a place in this wiki, in fact, they actually deserve it. This fact, of course, may change in the future if Marvel bothers in giving them a different reality, but I personally doubt this will happen.

And now, in my opinion, the Lego Avengers game can stay in the wiki, but not all those character pages. The ones that have already been created for characters already announced (Mantis, Skurge or Grandmaster being notable examples), are misleading and confusing for the casual reader, and they are destined to be replaced with canon info in a relatively short amount of time.

Also, I've seen some arguments about unrelated facts that are awfully wrong (such as saying that "Vulture is an enemy of Spider-Man" is more than enough reason to grant him a page, when it's not; or that a page should not be deleted just to be created later, when in fact it has to if it doesn't follow our policies for article creation and content), but they are not the subject of this dicsussion.

So, one of the few proposals that may satisfy a majority of users is to keep the Lego main page, delete all the DLC packs pages and incorporate them to the main page, and group all the character pages into a single subpage (Lego Marvel's Avengers/Characters, for example). However, as people have voiced different opinions, a voting process is in play to deal with this subject once and for all. You can keep commenting on this section while the voting is open.

Also, as a side note, in preparation for an upcoming major (and unrelated) proposal here, the whole content of the Playground will be archived in less than two weeks.Shabook (talk) 21:08, July 31, 2016 (UTC)


 * Okay, I can see the logic in removing the character pages, but since I have given plenty of hard evidence for the game being set in the MCU as well as confirmation of that from the press release mentioned above, to present the option of removing absolutely everything related to the game doesn't make sense. --Greater Good (talk) 00:55, August 1, 2016 (UTC)

I've voted for keeping only main Lego-related pages because I was the one who suggested condensing the Lego characters into a single page in the first place. However, I must say if had to choose between the first two options, I would've prefer the first one. Silacko (talk) 10:50, August 1, 2016 (UTC)

I don't edit articles here, so I'm not voting, and also not complaining about this criterion, since I can see the reason for it. I'm just dropping by again to state my opinion as both a casual user and an editor for other wikis, if it's valid in this situation, which is keeping only the main Lego pages. Because we do have Trivia items to state things like each character's original biography in the comics (Earth 616 and others), and while I don't find the games' information as relevant as that, it still seems like something worth mentioning there, especially since we're talking about non-canon realities that were directly inspired by the MCU. I know we're all tired of seeing many unnecessary Lego pages around or game information being used as canon one (I know I am), but I'm asking everyone to take this in consideration when voting. Or just ignore this comment altogether if you don't think I should have a voice here. No resentments. Uglyguy25 (talk) 00:44, August 2, 2016 (UTC)

There has been three days without votes. If we are strict to the rules, vote can be finished, but we are going to keep it going until the end. However, as an advice, if anyone is interested in keeping the information to themselves, to move it to another specialized wiki of something similar, I suggest to do it quickly. Unless votes change drastically in the following days, articles can be deleted as soon as the votes end. Hopefully, all admins will add with the task...--Shabook (talk) 20:38, August 5, 2016 (UTC)

Voting
Here you can vote about the proposals to change the way Lego pages are handled in the Marvel Cinematic Universe Wiki. You can vote for deleting the information about it, keeping it as it currently is, or keeping it in the wiki, but condensing it to a few main pages using. To vote you must add your signature (Typing ~ after the # symbol).

The voting process will last for exactly a week, which means it will end on August 7 in 21:08 UTC. All voters must be active members of the wiki, having joined before the voting process began, and having edited an article in the last two months.

If there is no clear winner, there is also the possibility to make a second round of voting between the two most voted options in the first round--Shabook (talk) 21:08, July 31, 2016 (UTC)

Removing Lego pages

 * 1) Nerdtastic1221 (talk) 21:17, July 31, 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Draft227 (talk) 18:42, July 31, 2016
 * 3) AKA S.I.H (talk) 23:23, July 31, 2016 (UTC)
 * 4) TomasDerksen (talk) 21:35, July 31, 2016 (UTC)
 * 5) Gerisama (talk) 07:16, August 1, 2016 (UTC)
 * 6) Dr.Who1997To The Playground 10:20, August 1, 2016 (UTC)
 * 7) MCUFFTW ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ 01:24, August 2, 2016 (UTC)
 * 8) Elledy92 (talk) 20:35, August 2, 2016 (UTC)

Keeping all Lego-related pages

 * 1) Greater Good (talk) 23:57, July 31, 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Byzantinefire - There are no strings on me  (talk ) 00:02, August 1, 2016 (UTC)

Keeping only main Lego-related pages

 * 1) Silacko (talk) 09:42, August 1, 2016 (UTC)
 * 2) Babyrockhopper (talk) 10:48, August 1, 2016 (UTC)
 * 3) SonOfAres1 (talk) 14:48, August 2, 2016 (UTC)

Result
Per the votes above, articles related to Lego Marvel's Avengers can and will be removed from this wiki. Thank you to all editors for your votes.--Shabook (talk) 02:38, August 8, 2016 (UTC) }}